HI guys,

I have just bbeen informed that ATF now considers any firearm that can fire readily available fixed modern ammunition as a modern gun even if it is pre 1898.

Is this the case?

Rgds,
K

The definition of antique is codified as law, ATF can't change the definition by ruling differently. It would have to be changed by congress rewriting the law.

Gun Control Act Definitions
Antique Firearm

18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(16)

The term “Antique Firearm” means:

A. Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and

B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

C. Any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term antique firearm shall not include any weapon which includes a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock or any combination thereof.

ATF GCA Definitions

The only thing that changes is the "readily available" list. There are companies that are reproducing pre-1898 loaded ammo for a lot of the old black powder cartridges now that weren't "readily available in ordinary channels of commerce" in the past.

National Firearms Act Definitions
Antique Firearm

26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

ATF NFA Definition.

The definition of antique hasn't changed in the NFA OR CGA because congress hasn't changed it.

So would a pre 1898 english 12bore shotgun that shoots regular nitro cartridges be classed as modern because the ammunition is readily available?

K

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
So would a pre 1898 english 12bore shotgun that shoots regular nitro cartridges be classed as modern because the ammunition is readily available?

K

If it's an original pre-1898 then NO it is still an antique because of it's date of manufacture BUT if it is a replica or reproduction then YES it would fall under the GCA and need to be transferred through an FFL in most cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
So would a pre 1898 english 12bore shotgun that shoots regular nitro cartridges be classed as modern because the ammunition is readily available?

No, Kiri. That's one great advantage of the 1887 hammer Paradox gun I took to Portugal. As far as the GCA of 1968 pre-1899 manufactured arms are antiques and not firearms. It must be remembered that those same pre-1899 arms ARE considered firearms for the purposes of other US laws and for some individual state laws.

Tell me this makes sense. A person or entity may import up to 50 firearms per year into the United States without incurring the 11% Federal Excise Tax (FET). If you import that 51st firearm then you owe FET for all 51. But pre-1899 arms are classified as sporting goods for import and you must pay FET regardless of the quantity imported.

So the reason I ask is that ATF told a friend of mine and FFL that any firearm that can shoot readily available fixed ammunition is classed as a modern weapon.

as such a 12bore shotgun that can shoot the regular shells available in Walmart is not treated as an antique.

As many of you know I have 40-50 guns for sale in the states many of which fall into this category so it is somewhat concerning as ATF are telling us something different to what we thought we knew.

K

December 31, 1898 and before
are STLL consider Antiques by ATF and CUSTOMS
(based on USC 18)

Had a little confusion with Canada recently due to the Variation between 18 USC and 26 USC--
see the BOLD words below-

(when Homeland was created the wording in 26 USC was written a tad differently)

did finally straighten this out and got the 1897 gun into the US

18 U.S.C. 44
§921. Definitions

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;
OR
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.



26 USC
§ 5845. Definitions

(g) Antique firearm
The term ‘‘antique firearm’’ means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or
replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898)
AND
also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
So the reason I ask is that ATF told a friend of mine and FFL that any firearm that can shoot readily available fixed ammunition is classed as a modern weapon.

as such a 12bore shotgun that can shoot the regular shells available in Walmart is not treated as an antique.

As many of you know I have 40-50 guns for sale in the states many of which fall into this category so it is somewhat concerning as ATF are telling us something different to what we thought we knew.

K

Sounds like an agent doesn't know what he is talking about. That really isn't surprising since you can ask the exact same question of 3 different agents and get 5 different answers.

When dealing with the ATF the best answer is always get it in writing.

U.S. Code: Title 26 - INTERNAL REVENUE CODE is the tax code.
Under that is, 26 U.S. Code Subtitle E - Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes.
Within that is Chapter 53 - MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE, DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS.
Chapter 53 includes paragraphs 5801-5872.
Paragraph 5845 is DEFINITIONS and, like all the definitions, it starts with "For the purpose of this chapter—".
Subparagraph (g) defines ANTIQUES but again only "For the purpose of this chapter—", i.e. for the purpose of the tax code.

Under this chapter an 1895 mauser would not be an antique because it fires readily available 7x57 cartridges.

But just because it isn't an ANTIQUE under this Chapter doesn't mean it is a FIREARM.

Subparagraph (a) of Paragraph 5845 DEFINITIONS defines FIREARMS as

"The term “firearm” means:
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon."

So, unless the barrel of that 1895 Mauser has been cut to less than 18" or unless the overall length of that 1895 Mauser is less that 26" or unless the 1895 Mauser has been modified for automatic fire "For the purpose of this chapter—" the 1895 Mauser is NOT A FIREARM.

26 U.S. Code Subtitle E - Alcohol, Tobacco, and Certain Other Excise Taxes, Chapter 53 - MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE, DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS deals with taxes, registration, importation, and transfer of machine guns, short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns, and destructive devices. This Chapter only regulates rifles and shotguns, regardless of date of manufacture, if they fall into those categories.

Unless you have a Chapter 53 firearm, as defined in the Chapter, the Chapter doesn't apply.

The next time someone tells you that "Those are not antiques. Look at 26 USC § 5845. Definitions" then you tell them, yes, they are not antiques under 26 USC, the NFA tax code. Then advise them that neither are they FIREARMS under that same section they just quoted you, 26 USC § 5845. Definitions. If they are skeptical ask them to look at the definition of FIREARMS there and ask them how an 1895 Mauser or an 1896 12 bore game gun meets that definition. Of course it doesn't.

+++++++++++++++++++++++ Here is the applicable code ..............

18 U.S. Code - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, Chapter 44 - FIREARMS

Defines an ANTIQUE "As used in this chapter—" as:

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Here we can see that the 1895 Mauser is an antique because it was "manufactured in or before 1898", period. There is no requirement regarding modern ammunition.

Also defined in this chapter are FIREARMS. Those are defined in subparagraph (3) of Definitions:

"The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device.
Such term does not include an antique firearm."

Antiques, as defined in this chapter, are NOT firearms and as such they are not regulated under the Chapter.

This is the US Code that regulates purchase, transfer, ownership, sales, etc. of firearms - pre-1899 rifles and shotguns are not regulated.

Simply put, Kiri, your shotguns

1. Do not meet the definition of "Firearm" under US Code 26 and, therefore, are not regulated under that code.

2. Are "Antique firearms" under US Code 18 and do not meet the definition of "Firearm" under that code and, therefore, are not regulated under that code.