The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Remington agrees to M700 Trigger recall.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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http://www.msn.com/en-us/money...ar-us-gun/ar-BBgoPPI America's oldest gun manufacturer, Remington, has agreed to replace millions of triggers in its most popular product—the Model 700 rifle. The company has been riddled for years with claims the gun can fire without the trigger being pulled, often with deadly results. A 2010 CNBC documentary, "Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation," explored allegations that for decades the company covered up a design defect, which Remington continues to deny. But now, under a nationwide settlement filed Friday in a federal court in Missouri, the company is agreeing to replace the triggers in about 7.85 million rifles. The settlement involves a class action suit brought in 2013 by Ian Pollard of Concordia, Missouri, who claimed his Remington 700 rifle fired on multiple occasions without the trigger being pulled. The agreement also settles a similar class action case in Washington state. The Pollard suit accused Remington and its owners of negligence, breach of warranty, unfair and deceptive trade practices, and fraudulent concealment—some of it involving the company's formal response to the 2010 CNBC documentary. Remington and attorneys for the plaintiffs were expected to issue a joint statement shortly regarding the settlement, which still must be approved by a judge. At least two dozen deaths and more than 100 serious injuries have been linked to inadvertent discharges of Remington 700 series rifles. In court filings, Remington denied the allegations, calling them "inaccurate, misleading, (and) taken out of context." And last year, a judge dismissed several of the claims, including negligence and fraudulent concealment. But by this July, the parties announced they were working out details of a "nationwide class settlement" involving the controversial gun. Remington's 700 series, which began with the Model 721 shortly after World War II, has been wildly popular not only with hunters and target shooters, but also with law enforcement and the U.S. military. The gun is prized for its accuracy and smooth operation, thanks to a unique trigger mechanism patented in the 1940s by Remington engineer Merle "Mike" Walker. But the CNBC investigation revealed that even before the gun went on the market, Walker himself had discovered a potential problem with the trigger he designed. In a 1946 memo, he warned of a "theoretical unsafe condition" involving the gun's safety—the mechanism that's supposed to keep the rifle from firing accidentally. Subsequent memos during the testing process noted guns could be made to fire simply by switching off the safety or operating the bolt. "This situation can be very dangerous from a safety and functional point of view," said a 1947 inspection report . See the full CNBC documentary, " Remington Under Fire: A CNBC Investigation" As usual just my $.02 Paul K | ||
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The only issue these triggers had was owners who didn't keep things clean, and put their booger hooks where they didn't belong. The resulting injuries and deaths are a result of not following basic gun handling rules. Yes it's cocked, and it has bullets too!!! | |||
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only remington's triggers had that problem.. nobody else. it was a design flaw they could have - and should have - addressed long ago. | |||
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[/QUOTE] only remington's triggers had that problem.. nobody else. it was a design flaw they could have - and should have - addressed long ago.[/QUOTE] You don't really believe that, do you? There isn't a rifle ever made that hasn't had an unintended discharge. It is solely the responsibility of the person holding it for where the bullet goes, period. Anyone who trusts a safety is a fool, period. Muzzle control is how a firearm is kept safe, period. This settlement is the result of years of litigation and propaganda, nothing more and nothing less. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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Hmmm... wonder how Remington makes a safe retro safety without blocking the firing pin? | |||
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In 1982 or 1983 Remington placed warnings in every major gun magazine that the 700 would sometimes fire when the safety was released IF THE TRIGGER HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY PULLED WHEN THE SAFETY WAS ENGAGED. (ie. Load a round,engage the safety,pull the trigger and then push the safety forward and the gun could accidentally go off. Remington's offer was that they would fix the gun at no charge, but required $25 shipping charge,and they gave you a phone number to call for an authorization number to ship the gun back to them. They also stated that the gun should not be fired until the repairs were made. Remington knew of the trigger problem prior to '82 or '83. Many people either never saw the warning or didn't want to spend the extra money and were killed and injured by an unsafe rifle. | |||
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only remington's triggers had that problem.. nobody else. it was a design flaw they could have - and should have - addressed long ago.[/QUOTE] You don't really believe that, do you? There isn't a rifle ever made that hasn't had an unintended discharge. It is solely the responsibility of the person holding it for where the bullet goes, period. Anyone who trusts a safety is a fool, period. Muzzle control is how a firearm is kept safe, period. This settlement is the result of years of litigation and propaganda, nothing more and nothing less.[/QUOTE] So if you build a rifle, or do a trigger job, it would be ok if you pulled the trigger when the safety was on and then when you took the safety off it fired? And I know your answer, and I agree with you on muzzle control and safety. I think Remington dropped the ball on this a long time ago. | |||
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I see posts on how to adjust triggers on the forums all the time. Think twice before telling anyone how to lighten the pull. I had a 722 in the '50's that did fire when the safety was moved forward. I was in a deer stand and pushed the safety and bang!!! Later yrs after I was a fulltime gunsmith I had an O/U fire at the test hall when the customer wanted to see a pattern. This was new in the box as I took it out of the box. When standing at the safe area of the test room I closed the action on a shell and the shotgun fired into the floor. We could not find a reason for the discharge on this new gun. It only takes a small grain of trash to cause a failure. I was working warranty for Remington in the '70's and was in on the first recall of triggers. A 700 came in for firing by pushing off the safety. It would repeat the firing. We had to write reports on every gun for warranty repair. In the '80's a person called and wanted to know about Rem. triggers. I wouldn't answer his questions and told him that any information would have to came from the owner of the shop. I found out later that it was Rem. lawyers and lawyers for a person who had shot a person with pushing off the safety. They had court orders to go into Rem. files and found the report I wrote some 12 yrs before and came looking for me. A court reporter and three or four lawyers came to the shop and questioned my boss on triggers. I didn't know what it was all about until after the attorneys questioned the boss for about an hour. They came down and asked me if I remember a report written by me some 12 yrs before. I had written lots of reports doing warranty reports. SO GUYS WATCH WHAT YOU TELL PEOPLE ON TRIGGERS. I learned that the case was settled out of court for ????? lots of dollars. There isn't a gun made which can be fire under certain conditions. It can do trash, wrong type of oil, and yes a poor factory trigger design. THE ONLY WAY TO NOT KILL SOMEONE IS TO HAVE THE GUN POINTING TO A SAFE DIRECTION. Once in deer camp a friend brought his rifle into the camp without unloading the chamber. I asked him to point it out to a safe area and open the bolt. IT FIRED ON PUSHING THE SAFETY OFF.. This was a Mauser 98 with a Timney trigger. Just some 2 cents worth of cautions Les | |||
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Fired on pushing the safety ? I fixed a number of 22 pistols that did that , including my own . But I tuned a bunch of700 triggers and all worked properly before and after I worked with them. I did witness one "AD" - a fairly new hunter unloading at the end of the day , BANG .Heimmediately said "it fired all by itself" I sad " BS I saw your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't have been " I assume most of the problems were that type ! And the replacement 700 trigger ==badly made so it was recalled !!    | |||
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You don't really believe that, do you? There isn't a rifle ever made that hasn't had an unintended discharge. It is solely the responsibility of the person holding it for where the bullet goes, period. Anyone who trusts a safety is a fool, period. Muzzle control is how a firearm is kept safe, period. This settlement is the result of years of litigation and propaganda, nothing more and nothing less.[/QUOTE] So if you build a rifle, or do a trigger job, it would be ok if you pulled the trigger when the safety was on and then when you took the safety off it fired? And I know your answer, and I agree with you on muzzle control and safety. I think Remington dropped the ball on this a long time ago.[/QUOTE] If that's what you got from my post, well, you might read what I wrote again. Or perhaps have someone else read it and explain it to you. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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And I'm wondering how stiff the replacement triggers will be... TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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3 times, 3 people, all factory, 40, 20 and 2 year old rifles. 30/06, 243 and 338RUM, taking the safety off and boom. all pointed in the clear. no finger near the trigger, hand not even on the grip. they all have timney's now. | |||
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only remington's triggers had that problem.. nobody else. it was a design flaw they could have - and should have - addressed long ago.[/QUOTE] Occasionally one sees a post which begs the response, "What a load of crap"! This is one such. Remington is not the only manufacturer to produce a rifle which exhibited that problem. I have, in the shop now, a Sako 579 and a Winchester Model 70. On both of these you can engage the safety, pull the trigger, and the rifle will fire, without touching the trigger, when the safety is disengaged. In both instances, just like with the Remington 700, the problem is a defect which either made it past quality control, a defect which arose from wear, or the result of poorly executed modification. Remington has issued at least two recalls on Remington 600, 660, 700, 721, and 722 triggers since I started gunsmithing back in the seventies. This in an attempt to mollify the lawyers. Fat chance; only money will do this. Now, if I had been in charge, I would have changed the trigger design simply because it could have been improved but the truth is, the trigger design was not the root cause of the "firing on safety release" problems. Regards, Bill | |||
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I'm not going to get into design, safety etc. Did they know didn't they etc. I think that has been debated for several years. Yep we can pretty much all agree if the user hadn't been pointing the rifle at someone when they pushed the safety off then no one would have been killed or injured. I read the article to the wife last night her first comment was "why was the gun pointed at anyone" Trained her well  No one wants to think anymore as you pick up anything from the store and it is covered in warning labels. Yep your IRON might be HOT  This recall is not going to make the critics happy. If a rifle can go off when the safety is removed and someone hasn't worked on the trigger then it "MAY?" be a design flaw. If a gun is pointed at someone loaded, unloaded, safety on, off unless you plan to shoot them then it is "USER ERROR!!!!" I don't care if it went off or not.  As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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It has happened to me. Situation #3 is what I experienced. I chambered a round and the rifle fired as the bolt handle was lowered. I was sitting. My left hand was on the forend and my right hand was on the bolt handle. The safety was already off. The rifle was pointed in the general direction of a group of ibex. That was enough for me.
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I can fully understand a consumer being entitled to a product that works without mechanical malfunction, But people want to somehow hold Remington accountable for the blatantly irresponsible firearm handling actions of individuals while operating a rem700?......Thats drawing a long bow. Now if it was the case of faulty steel in the action or barrel during production, and the gases/fragments hit and injured-killed someone, That might be a different story. | |||
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So was Jack right all along?  | |||
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I do believe what I wrote. I didn't say only Remington had any problems.
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one should be able to trust a safety to do what it was designed to do. one should not rely upon a safety to prevent shooting somebody. the remington problem was that when the safety was disengaged, some rifles would fire. that is a design defect. a mangled mauser safety can do the same. but AFAIK, new mausers didn't do that.
muzzle control is great, but nothing is perfect. and even with perfect muzzle control, a safety should not fire the gun when disengaged. if several of your customers reported that their rifles fired when the bolt was lowered, or the safety was disengaged, would you just tell them "exercise muzzle control, and nobody will get hurt. that is your responsibility. relying on the safety makes you a fool"? do you tell that to all your customers? why even bother with safeties? | |||
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customers are not entitled to perfection. that's not what the issue is. the remington issue was that they knew that their design was causing rifles to fire unintentionally, but refused to recall the. customers are entitled to recourse if the company refuses to fix its mistakes.
people want to hold remington accountable for selling and refusing to fix guns that would occasionally fire when they weren't supposed to. yes muzzle control is important, but 2 people being at fault doesn't mean one of them isn't at fault. who here would sell a rifle with a faulty safety and expect nobody to get hurt? | |||
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Remington's design was not causing rifles to fire unintentionally; faulty parts and poor quality control was the root cause. The faulty design song is sung by those who want that to be the case but that is not the case. Jack Belk saying it is doen't make it so. Regards, Bill | |||
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"While Walker contended the issue had to do with the manufacturing process and not his design, critics including firearms experts and plaintiffs' attorneys have argued that the same aspects of the design that allow the gun to fire so smoothly also make it possible for internal parts of the trigger to become misaligned, rendering the gun unsafe. Regardless, in 1948 Walker proposed a fix designed to lock the parts in place, but the change was never implemented." if there was no design fault, what was Walker fixing? even if one presumes the design was not defective, then remington's manufacturing was. really not much difference to remington's duty not to sell rifles that occasionally fire when the bolt was lowered or the safety was disengaged, or to do something about the rifles they had already sold. | |||
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You missed a couple of points. The first point was that Walker didnot feel that the design was at fault ("While walker contended the issue had to do with the manufacturing process and NOT his design"). The second point was that Walker proposed changes "regardless". In other words, he proposed changes which would take these aspects of the design out of the equation in spite of the fact that he did not feel that the design was the root cause of the problem. Another point which you miss, or simply ignore, is that virtually ALL manufacturers occasionally produce items which are out-of-spec and malfunction as a result. I had rifles from other manufacturers for which I performed warranty service (Winchester, Savage) come through the shop with the same problems. Also multiple rifles from companies for which I did not perform warranty service (Sako, Weatherby, Shulz&Larsen,Ithaca, Browning, S&W etc.) which exhibited the same problem. I do believe that all companies should produce a product which is free from defects but they don't and offer warranties to try and make up for it. Of course, ctitics include "firearms experts (these are guys just like me only being paid to offer criticism) and plaintiffs attorneys". Plaintiff's attorneys are always objective and always have a thorough understanding of the subject in question. Anyone who believes this has never had to try and explain something to an attorney. They are so certain of their superior grasp of all things that they just won't freakin' listen! More than once I have had to say, "Just keep quiet and let me finish instead of trying to anticipate what I'm going to say." I do believe that Remington should have quit manufacturing the fully adjustable trigger (just as Ruger did) to preclude tampering by the end user. The truth is, many of Remington's customers don't DESERVE an adjustable trigger. The lawyers and experts aligned with the plaintiffs seized upon an aspect of the design simply because they felt that they could sell this aspect as being faulty. That they have been relatively successful in doing so shows they did a great job of judging their audience, if nothing else. Regards, Bill | |||
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A friends 700 did fire when I moved the safety---finger was NOT on trigger and rifle was pointed in a safe direction. I related this to my late gunsmith/friend. He said there is an easily fixable problem with Remington safeties. | |||
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Bill, I did not miss those points. we will have to agree to disagree. | |||
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What? CNBC a got a story wrong? What a surprise! John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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Got to make sure you use the correct words. I'm sure lawyers were paid big bucks to make sure "recall" wasn't part of the deal and "voluntary" was.  As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Good discussion, fellas, but I'm surprised no one mentioned that this recall is absolutely going to CRUSH Remington financially. The safety issues notwithstanding, I'd hate to see the demise of one of the most legendary companies in the world because of something like this. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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I'd guess that Remington's financial and legal department have the "CRUSH" factor all figured out and aren't losing sleep over it. | |||
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I have shot several hundred Remington 700 rifles. I have never, ever, had any problems with any of their triggers. In fact, the only rifle I have ever had trigger problems with was the Weatherby Mk V made in Japan. We have had several that would fire when one closes the bolt. That has never happened with any of our Remington rifles. | |||
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Remington is estimating its costs under the proposed settlement at $7.8MM. But they are proposing to set aside some $27MM as a "settlement reserve", thus taking that amount off of their current taxable income -- and keeping it off for years. So in effect, this settlement will cost them nothing in the short term and a negligible amount in the longer term. The much bigger problem for Remington is that everyone who ever wanted an AR-type gun now has two of them and wants to sell one. Remington's sales, along with every other gun manufacturer, have crashed in the last few months and are not expected to EVER recover to the post-school shooting buying frenzy levels. Look for the company to be passed on to yet another owner -- and for the liability for existing products to be shed to a shell company with no assets. | |||
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Hmmm...that's good information, Stonecreek. I wouldn't have guessed the tally for this would have been that low, honestly. For a company with Remington's reserves (and financial backing), that's really not that much. It just sounds like a momentous undertaking to basically recall every 700 rifle ever made. As for your last sentence, at this point I wouldn't mind seeing Remington transferred to another owner after this situation is over. Current management isn't winning any support across the industry, and the glory days are fading. They need to find a home with someone who's passionate about the industry and not just in it for the bottom line. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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This is very interesting. Over the last 25 years or so whatever I acquired a new rifle I would always do two things. Remove the trigger and barrel and replaced them with the appropriate Jewell trigger and Lilja barrel. Most often barrel change was required to correct the twist to the faster one required for longer bullets. Back to the issue of triggers. Whether it was a 70 Winchester, or 700 Remington I really enjoy a 2 pound glass break that the Jewell can provide. I never even thought to question the safety of the Jewell. If anybody has any input I would be interested in hearing it. I generally transport with a full magazine and an empty chamber when the field until covering the target if possible (or shortly before then).  Regarding safety I did hear a story about a PH who confiscated the bolts from clients until the time of firing because of reported poor gun handling ethics. Probably a little bit extreme. -------------------- EGO sum bastard ut does frendo | |||
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To the contrary, I think even their $7.8MM "public estimate" is way too HIGH. The reason is that it is not a recall, but a voluntary trigger replacement, much like the event in the 1980's, and much like Ruger's offer to modify its single-action revolvers. Very few people will bother, especially if they have to ship their gun to Remington, to get a new trigger -- and certainly not if they've never had a hint of trouble with their old trigger. Although the plaintiff's lawyers are apparently happy with the settlement (nothing has been mentioned about their fees, which are assuredly NOT provided in-kind in the form of new triggers), it is not clear if the court will approve it. After all, the settlement, as proposed, does little for the public and makes it very difficult for another plaintiff to bring a successful suit on the same issue. If this were a consumer issue broader than the relatively limited arena of sporting rifles then I doubt that a judge would approve such a one-sided settlement, especially where a number of people have demonstrably been killed or injured, at least in part due to the defective product. After all, when Ford Pinto gas tanks were exploding like IED's all over the country can you imagine a judge approving a settlement that gave Pinto owners either a $10 voucher "good for any Ford product", or they could send their car to Ford for six months to have a new gas tank installed? If this settlement is approved Remington will come out smelling like a rose, at least financially. | |||
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This recall is not all 700's it those made after may 2006 until apr 2014. | |||
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I'm pretty sure that is a different recall; regarding excess thread sealant on the X-Mark and X-Mark Pro triggers. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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Say what you will about Remington triggers but i've been using them since the 50's and have never had any problems, what so ever! Most of the problems encountered are the dummies and their screw drivers. Never had a bolt handle fall off either! Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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Toomany Tools -Thank you for the clarification, I'll check some more. | |||
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My friend has a 1979 Mod 700 ADL and he called and Remington said his was not under recall. Does anyone have specifics as to what years under recall? | |||
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http://www.remington.com/pages...l700-modelseven.aspx | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Remington agrees to M700 Trigger recall.
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