Pac Met is no longer doing this, they recommended Kawolski in Cleveland. Any thoughts?

Blanchard's in Salt Lake City, UT did a few for me and I have nothing but praise for them.

My thoughts....

Just another hurdle added to the many hurdles already in place when using a 100 year old surplus action for a current sporting rifle.

Doug, you can just do what countless thousands around the world do, keep your loads sensible and not worry about it.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
Or you can just do what countless thousands around the world do, keep your loads sensible and not worry about it.

I would imagine that depends on what has been done to the action.

They include firearms in their applications.

I've used Bodycote in Laconia, NH for case hardening new receivers. Very happy with quality and price. This location has an FFL but I'm unsure about their others.

quote:

Any thoughts?

Yea stop using old out dated materials.

Then use modern actions that are far superior in the metallurgy.

Yeah well that is apparently a thought

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:
My thoughts....

Just another hurdle added to the many hurdles already in place when using a 100 year old surplus action for a current sporting rifle.

The FZH modern action from Germany comes un heat treated Good for the custom maker, since all necessary modification's can be done in the soft state..THEN heat treat. So the problem, or hurdle, as you call it is still there

Any word on why Pac Met jumped ship? ITAR, perhaps?

I think I recall Stuart Satterlee mention Metal Treaters Inc. in a post from several years back.

Duane,
That action is also an alloyed steel as opposed to mild steel, is it not? I don't know which is why I ask. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:
My thoughts....

Just another hurdle added to the many hurdles already in place when using a 100 year old surplus action for a current sporting rifle.

The FZH modern action from Germany comes un heat treated Good for the custom maker, since all necessary modification's can be done in the soft state..THEN heat treat. So the problem, or hurdle, as you call it is still there

Duane, no one appreciates the function and visual beauty of a custom Mauser than me.
But for most of us the economics of building such a rifle are long gone.

In between scarcity of unbutchered actions, initial cost, the cost to rework and the potential risk of total loss due to heat treating problems, I think we have reached the point (or are close to it) that it simply isn't economically viable any more to use surplus actions.

If FZH has an authorized heat treater in the US, who guarantees the action won't warp that would appear to be a solution.
Doubtful that many here would want to risk a $3500 and up action to a hope-for-the-best heat treater though.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Duane,
That action is also an alloyed steel as opposed to mild steel, is it not? I don't know which is why I ask. Regards, Bill.

If memory serves they are made from C35 steel Billy. Here we call it AISI 1035. It's good for high pressure hand railings, high performance pig fences and rifle actions providing you case harden it.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Duane,
That action is also an alloyed steel as opposed to mild steel, is it not? I don't know which is why I ask. Regards, Bill.

If memory serves they are made from C35 steel Billy. Here we call it AISI 1035. It's good for high pressure hand railings, high performance pig fences and rifle actions providing you case harden it.

Pretty sure they use 8620.
http://www.globalmetals.com.au...ening_Steel_8620.pdf

It's possible that they used 8620. The Italians and Turkish love that stuff. As a rule though, most of those bavarian-gehwer-schmotten-gehwer-bottens really love their C35 for case hardened stuff and 42CrMo4 tool steel for through hardened parts.

ADD NOTE: Now that I think about it. I don't really know why they would build an expensive action out of material like 8620 or C35. One would think that they would use a 4140 equivalent like their 42CrMo4. Or close to it. Just sayin.

Are you going to case harden ? Then a .20 % carbon steel is normally used ,like 8620.Like my Lone Star rolling block which was color case hardened .
For non-carburized then use 1035 or higher carbon. These would be 35-40 HRc .
Any way know what you started with and what you want to end with. There are ways to minimize warping if the metallurgist knows what it's all about !! Some companies apparently don't know how !
Peters is top of the line for high tech knives .I've no hesitation sending makers there. Don't know about their gun HT.

Interesting that with only .2% carbon the 8620 thru hardens to Rc 41 due to other alloying elements.

Your car may have some boron steel! .005% Boron steels are greatly changed by that little pinch of Boron ! I don' think there's application for it in guns.
We call that micro-metallurgy !!

quote:

ADD NOTE: Now that I think about it. I don't really know why they would build an expensive action out of material like 8620 or C35. One would think that they would use a 4140 equivalent like their 42CrMo4. Or close to it. Just sayin.

Whaaaaattt??

And move the materials needle from the 1700s, to the mid 1900s and eliminate all the case hardening witchcraft, secret mixtures of dead animal parts and pieces and warpage?

What a heretic!

quote:

Doug W

WWWwwe e e l l l - - - - Doug W ! ! !
I wasn't suggesting that we all just jump up and and cast off our antediluvian traditions, faith and hoodoo and make a leap of faith into the 21st century. That's very presumptuous. It was simply idle speculation on my part. That's the problem with the tail end of winter in Canada. I am far to idle. With far to much time to speculate. Please, take no notice of the ramblings of a snowblind Ole Peckerhead with cabin fever!



But I still think that no self respecting, high powered, techno krut would use anything less than 42CrMo4 / 4140. Case hardening steels are more suited to 3rd world technology countries like Spain, Turkey and Italy. LMAO ROFF

So,.,,basically nobody has used the firm recommended by Pac Met? Oops...sorry ..didn't mean to get back on the subject

And..Doug W: thanks for your insight. The last modern action I worked over (To actually make it into a reliable DGR ) was a post 64 M-70 CR. By the time I got done, I had virtually converted it back to the Pre 64 and the time I had in it was outrageous.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):


And..Doug W: thanks for your insight. The last modern action I worked over (To actually make it into a reliable DGR ) was a post 64 M-70 CR. By the time I got done, I had virtually converted it back to the Pre 64 and the time I had in it was outrageous.

Undoubtedly.

That is why I question given all the hurdles, including now losing the most well know Mauser HT firm is it worth it?

I have three FN 98 receiver "blanks" purchased from Sarco years ago on my list to finish machining and they too are mild steel and need case hardening.
So I have an interest in our options.

But since almost all the parts are replaced or heavily modified, at what point do you just make your own receiver in the configuration you want, from 4140 prehardened to whatever Rockwell you want, avoid the case hardening and post machining warpage risks.

Like all the past accuracy modifications to Remington 700s, blue printing, sleeving, bolt bearing pads, the leap was made to just make a tighter tolerance clone and forget about all that hassle.

I think we are there, at least I am.
I put together a long stroke broaching press, and just got back my 10 Dumont keyway broaches commercially reground to the proper width. I still need to do more work on them to make radiused lugway broaches but that is the direction I am headed.

Already have a dozen pre drilled blanks hardened to 35Rc.

The local HT firm hardens 46lbs of 4140 for $75.
I have had them heat treat many items of 4140 w/o any issues.

Look out Paul Mauser! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

By the time I got done, I had virtually converted it back to the Pre 64 and the time I had in it was outrageous.

Mr. Wiebe

I think everyone would be interested to hear what you did to that post 64 to get it back to pre-64.

Well...the basics was to make a new magazine for the 460 Wby out of 1/16" stock and make it feed off the rails. While at it, got rid of that ugly bolt handle and welded on a new one close to old M -70 style...etc

Speerchucker you were right, just found out FZH actions are made from C35 which is close to 1030-35. The Mayfair actions are 8620.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
Speerchucker you were right, just found out FZH actions are made from C35 which is close to 1030-35. The Mayfair actions are 8620.

I believe Granite Mountain actions are 8620 as well. I believe Hahn falling block actions are 8620. It can't be all that bad.

Good point Matt.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
It's possible that they used 8620. The Italians and Turkish love that stuff. As a rule though, most of those bavarian-gehwer-schmotten-gehwer-bottens really love their C35 for case hardened stuff and 42CrMo4 tool steel for through hardened parts.

ADD NOTE: Now that I think about it. I don't really know why they would build an expensive action out of material like 8620 or C35. One would think that they would use a 4140 equivalent like their 42CrMo4. Or close to it. Just sayin.

Speerchucker.. Metal sent me the link to Dorleac & Dorleac...Interesting info...might be an eye opener to merits of C 35

.
Well Duane;
I think some one told me that the FZH made their actions from that crap some time ago and it sort of stuck in my head like ever so much other useless information that I have filed under: "whiskey drinkin information". The European gun makers do like their C35 for case hardened stuff just like the Italians and Spaniards dot on 8620. Personally, I hate either type. I'm forever seeing parts made from that crap that has a .005 inch shell on the outside that's 50Rc which chips or wears through into a lump of butter underneath which leaves the part essentially, non reclaimable. I would rather see through hardened material that wears evenly and can be reshaped and reused. But that's just me.

Half way through this thread I sort of had myself believing they were probably made from 42CrMo4 out of pure common sense. But I guess my understanding of the Bavarian way of thinking has not yet been shattered.

42CrMo4 would still be a much better choice. But I'm sort of a cranky, old, opinionated bastard.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

By the time I got done, I had virtually converted it back to the Pre 64 and the time I had in it was outrageous.

Mr. Wiebe

I think everyone would be interested to hear what you did to that post 64 to get it back to pre-64.

Well...the basics was to make a new magazine for the 460 Wby out of 1/16" stock and make it feed off the rails. While at it, got rid of that ugly bolt handle and welded on a new one close to old M -70 style...etc

I am truly impressed with the results of the work of a master rifle builder. You guys make functional works of art that are a marvel to look at and operate. Not sure I am so impressed with the level of organization of many highly skilled rifle builders, but hey, you guys are artists--like sculptors, painters, musicians and engine builders--and that is how you roll.

With that in mind I have to ask. Why even consider using ANY M-70 action for a 460 Wby sized case? The M-70 works great for .532 rim sizes. All I had to do to go from 375 H&H to 416 Rem in a SS M-70 Classic was have the smith install a new barrel. I don't think I even had to change out the magazine and follower.

Wouldn't better actions for the 460 Wby, 378 and 416 Wby, 416 Rigby, and larger include the CZ 550, the big Ruger, the big BRNO, etc.

I personally NEVER try to get a rifle builder to force a square peg in a round hole......

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
.
Well Duane;
I think some one told me that the FZH made their actions from that crap some time ago and it sort of stuck in my head like ever so much other useless information that I have filed under: "whiskey drinkin information". The European gun makers do like their C35 for case hardened stuff just like the Italians and Spaniards dot on 8620. Personally, I hate either type. I'm forever seeing parts made from that crap that has a .005 inch shell on the outside that's 50Rc which chips or wears through into a lump of butter underneath which leaves the part essentially, non reclaimable. I would rather see through hardened material that wears evenly and can be reshaped and reused. But that's just me.

Half way through this thread I sort of had myself believing they were probably made from 42CrMo4 out of pure common sense. But I guess my understanding of the Bavarian way of thinking has not yet been shattered.

42CrMo4 would still be a much better choice. But I'm sort of a cranky, old, opinionated bastard.

Looks like the Germans still make them out of the same "crap" that Mauser made the Originals out of.
Interesting....

quote:

Originally posted by metal:

Looks like the Germans still make them out of the same "crap" that Mauser made the Originals out of.
Interesting....

Well, crap was just one mans opinion, mine. And like the old saying goes: "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and most of them stink!"

But, while there are a LOT of advantages to modern steels, if you're going to toss a bunch of money into a modern manufactured Mauser action, correct in every detail except the poor military tolerances. You better damned well get a modern manufactured Mauser, right down to the correct steel. Furthermore, the original steel is actually more than adequate for the task at hand and there are still countless 100 year old Mausers in .416 Rigby knocking over Buffalo in Africa and Mule Deer in Colorado.

It's still a silly steel to use in this day and age.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
Looks like the Germans still make them out of the same "crap" that Mauser made the Originals out of.
Interesting....

Wonder if they are still only using high carbon steel cutters and manual machines too?

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
Looks like the Germans still make them out of the same "crap" that Mauser made the Originals out of.
Interesting....

Wonder if they are still only using high carbon steel cutters and manual machines too?

On overhead, shaft driven machines. And the belts are made from horse hide rubbed with rosin. Powered by the same mill that grinds the flour and mills the timber for the Hamlet. And the machines are sitting on concrete pads on dirt floors too. And not just any dirt. Dirt lovingly carried on the backs of Schatzkinder wearing lederhosen in tiny pink and blue buckets from the heart of the Black Forest.

One thing is certain Doug W. People will never drink with us again without bringing shovels!

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
.
Well Duane;
I think some one told me that the FZH made their actions from that crap some time ago and it sort of stuck in my head like ever so much other useless information that I have filed under: "whiskey drinkin information". The European gun makers do like their C35 for case hardened stuff just like the Italians and Spaniards dot on 8620. Personally, I hate either type. I'm forever seeing parts made from that crap that has a .005 inch shell on the outside that's 50Rc which chips or wears through into a lump of butter underneath which leaves the part essentially, non reclaimable. I would rather see through hardened material that wears evenly and can be reshaped and reused. But that's just me.

Half way through this thread I sort of had myself believing they were probably made from 42CrMo4 out of pure common sense. But I guess my understanding of the Bavarian way of thinking has not yet been shattered.

42CrMo4 would still be a much better choice. But I'm sort of a cranky, old, opinionated bastard.

Maybe you should make it a point to have a mini conference with Dorleac et al

Just a thought..Do you have proof houses in Canada? Didn't think so! They certainly do in most of Europe.

Seems to me that the "pig iron" actions seem to be doing plumb swell and have a certificate to back it up ..even with "violent " cartridges (As Dorleac puts it )

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Just a thought..Do you have proof houses in Canada? Didn't think so! They certainly do in most of Europe.

Seems to me that the "pig iron" actions seem to be doing plumb swell and have a certificate to back it up ..even with "violent " cartridges (As Dorleac puts it )

Well, yes we do have proof houses in Canada. Quite a few actually. They are all private however, the same as your proof houses in the USA. Not government run like they are in some European countries. Colt has a proof house at their plant in Ontario as well as a few other small arms manufacturers in Canada. I personally operated as a proof house for Remington arms for 15 years here in Alberta. As did The Custom Gun Shop, Simpaul Smiths, Davidsons International and I believe Alain Bouchard. We all got our training at the plant in Ilion NY and were licensed to buy proof rounds from the plant in Lonoke Arkansas or Wilmington Delaware. It was all put into place because ITAR made it almost impossible to ship guns cross / border for the installation of parts such as barrels, receiver bodies and bolts. I did a very lucrative business for quite a few years installing bolts for 700s after the nose rings had been torn out or the handles broken off. Back then, 20 years ago I could buy a model 700 bolt body for $40 USD and our dollar was on par back then. Hind sight being 20/20 I wish I had bought about 1000 of them because Remington now allows the private sale of them. Back then, we could only sell one if we installed and proved it. I could also buy barreled action bodies for about $120 which was cheaper than I could buy a Shilen barrel for. Proof rounds however were NOT CHEAP. If memory serves, the 338s as an example were $60 per box of 20.

Actually as I posted about 4 posts up:

""""But, while there are a LOT of advantages to modern steels, if you're going to toss a bunch of money into a modern manufactured Mauser action, correct in every detail except the poor military tolerances. You better damned well get a modern manufactured Mauser, right down to the correct steel. Furthermore, the original steel is actually more than adequate for the task at hand and there are still countless 100 year old Mausers in .416 Rigby knocking over Buffalo in Africa and Mule Deer in Colorado. """"

C35 is perfectly fine for actions and bolt bodies, providing it's properly cased and heat treated. There just happen to be a lot of modern steels that are stronger and easier to use on today's market. C35 and other case hardening steels are not-so-fine for parts that are subject to wear, like hammers, sears and other such parts. Once you break through the case on the parts and into the soft core, the parts are pretty much toast.

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
Any word on why Pac Met jumped ship? ITAR, perhaps?

I’m guessing it has to do with the Washington State voter approved initiative which requires that a custom riflesmith or hobbiest wanting to drop off a serialized hunk of steel for said heat treating must perform a background check on the PacMet person he hands it to, and when the work is finished the PacMet employee must perform a background check on the rightful owner.

Since this became law we have seen a dramatic decrease in the number of heat treat facility employees across the state pilfering surplus Mauser actions from work, barreling and assembling them into custom sporting rifles, and using them to knock over the corner liquor store. In fact, there hasn't been a single documented case of this happening.

There have also been no documented cases of gunsmiths using Mauser actioned bolt rifles in the commission of a crime following heat treatment since the law went into effect. Solid proof that it is working!

Duane,

PM sent