This thread needs to be in the African Hunting Forums...

Saeed please move this thread.

Hey Non-Hacker, Right nice group. Darn shame it had to widen the thread so much. Might have known it would be your inability to "crop" the flick before posting it.

As far as the "stability" of Termite Food Stocks, they just don't all work that way. And if you decide sometine in the future to take your Rustable Blue & Termite Food "Holy Grails" out and actually spend some "extended" time with them in the woods, you will learn a thing about the subject. As you realize the Point-of-Impact has changed, it will probably be after you have either totally missed or wounded the Game.

I'll hope it is a clean miss. And in the back of your Non-Hacking mind, you will know that old Hot Core told you so.

Hey Idared, I tried to read your post, but didn't have much luck. It seems that Non-Hackers post has hosed-up this entire line of posts. From what I could see, it looked like I could actually "agree" with you on some of it.

On other parts concerning the TOTALLY SAFE, EXCELLENTLY DESIGNED Remington Trigger Assembly, I believe I've already covered it.

No desire to argue with you. Best of luck to you.

I had every intention of deleting my post,it was a bit harsh and crude and I really meant to apologize almost all of you that read it but I guess I was too late. Oh, well. BTW, you forgot the ' in Non-Hacker. It's the possesive case as in Non-Hacker's post, but I guess you can't "Hack" the english language. Non-Hacker??? me. You might want to enlighten the folks on that one. Are you a "hacker"? if so, I'd love to hear about it and while you're at it, please elaborate on your hunting prowess as is the norm with internet braggarts, they provide no details in their profile.jorge

Hey Non-Hacker, I've already cover the part about "my hunting" directly to you on two previous occasions. Don't intend to do it again since it is obvious your memory's retention ability is just not all that good.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the History and Tradition of the MARINE CORPS, a Non-Hacker is someone who "attempts" to be a MARINE but isn't man enough to make it, is too big of a "woosie" to stand up to the requirements and excell in them, or someone who has been tossed out of the CORPS. All MARINES refer to these people as Non-Hackers.

And, this is the second time I've explained this bit of the CORPS History and Tradition.

Just to stir the pot a bit!

You end all your posts with:

"Happiness is a 1903 Springfield action.
True happiness is hunting with a rifle made from one."

I share your love of 1903's but I am also aware (and I assume you are also) of the fact that the three position safety can cause an "accidental" discharge if the lever is not swung fully to the right when placing the weapon on "safe." If the lever is left in the vertical position and then swung to the ready position the cocked firing pin can be released.

The Springfield safety was based on the Mauser design...both very reliable weapons with extremely long track records.

Rick

rick

I share your love of 1903's but I am also aware (and I assume you are also) of the fact that the three position safety can cause an "accidental" discharge if the lever is not swung fully to the right when placing the weapon on "safe." If the lever is left in the vertical position and then swung to the ready position the cocked firing pin can be released.

If this is simply another back door attempt to make it appear all model 700s that misfire are caused by having a finger on the trigger at safety release or some other ridiculous reason then try again. If not, then please enlighten me how this is possible if you don't have your finger on the trigger. If you actually know what a Springfield trigger looks like you will realize the insanity of your statement. Contrary to your beloved Remington trigger the Springfield has TWO basic parts, the trigger and the sear. It does not have a piece doing something in between them like the factory Remington trigger does. It reienforces the idea you don't need the piece Remington has in there if the trigger is designed right to begin with!!! Also if you actually know what a Springfield safety looks like you would realize putting the safety lever from the center to the extreme right position simply locks the bolt in a closed position. Whichever position you choose for safety operation, center or far right will block the firing pin from moving. Upon moving the lever fully to the left the sear still holds the firing pin from moving forward unless you have your finger on the trigger. The sear is held in position by a very strong spring so it isn't very likely that you will suffer a fire on safety release with a Springfield.

I have never said I have ever had a Remington go off on me when I released the safety lever. What I have said is why would you own a trigger that has an extra piece in it that isn't needed and which can potentially cause this? I have also asked what Remington changed on their triggers about 1969 and why they did it. To date no one has answered and I doubt many who are championing Remington factory triggers the most even know what I am talking about. Do you?

You say you share my love of Springfields and that is great. However I do not share your love of Remington factory triggers and never will. As I have stated before my Wife has the last Remington in the safe. The others, at least ten or more, have all left town never to return. It is also the only rifle with a synthetic stock as it wears a Rimrock. It is her pride and joy so to keep peace we compromised. I installed a Shilen trigger in it and because of that she still uses it when hunting with me. She already was as careful as the best hunter and much more careful than the rest so for a paltry 70 bucks or so we both feel more at ease about the whole thing. The cost of this trigger was less money than many folks would justify spending EXTRA for a scope they really don't need, probably less than half that cost if the real truth is known. It was a bargain to me even if others think it was a waste of money. As I said, I feel the same way about a lot of scopes I see in the field today also.

Your opening statement spoke volumes to me. I have to believe that all you and a few others want to do is stir a pot. If you actually believe even half of what you and others have said in defense of these Remington factory triggers I would be shocked.

Have a great day and don't horde any Springfields. Remington 700s are much better to horde!!!!

Cold Bore: Not stirring the pot at all, I just don't buy into the only-Remingtons-are-accurate myth. The target I provided was right out of an unmodified Modle 70. "right out of the box" as they say. AS to Hot-Core's bumpkin hunting prowess, I guess it was so unremarkable I forgot all about it.

He's just about as wrong in his explanation of non-hacker. The term transcends all branches of service. BTW, before I got "educated" and started flying, I did two years as an 0311 in the Corps. Semper Fi, jorge

Hey Idared, I answered #1 before the best I could. If you "choose" not to understand it that is the way it will have to be.

As for #2, I've gone into considerable detail in multiple threads about exactly what causes any Trigger Assembly to have a malfunction. There are normally only 3 things, but I expanded the list to 4 when Mike375 said he can cause them by binding the trigger with improper bedding.

The 3 items are already in this thread so there is no need to repeat them. And they can happen on any mechanical Firing Mechanism made,including the old rag Mausers, Rugers, Savages, rag Pre-64 Controlled Feed M70s, Push Feed M70s - it doesn't matter who's it is - all of them.

And it doesn't matter who cares to argue the point, or how long they choose to continue arguing, that is the reality.

I told you I have no desire to continue the argument, so this is my last post in this thread.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core



<<"I told you I have no desire to continue the argument, so this is my last post in this thread.">>



You could always talk the talk until a real historical authority comes on line with the answers and the ability to substantiate his claims then you again walk the walk??? I guess that is all I ever really wanted was to silence your dangerous and irresponsible claims and comments with regard to this system and to knock the chip off your arrogant shoulder.



I agree with your final statement however, old friend! No mechanical device is "Totally Safe", But some to varying degree's of safety afforded by the inherent design over others which have proven to be more reliable through the test of time in their reliable function, to function as expected by the consumer and intended by the manufacturer and by inherent design itself...



CHECK MATE!



Now come on and admit it, you missed me didn't you ??? ;o)



Best Regards, Augustis ><>

I am not sure where you get the idea that I have a "love" of any particular weapon or trigger system. Perhaps you could direct me to my comments that led you to that conclusion.

All I have said is that I believe (based on my personal experience...which is all any of us can accurately speak to) is that "most" incidents concerning "accidental" discharges have far more to do with poor habits and careless weapon handling than they do with the particular design features of the weapon[s] in question.

I have never claimed or stated that there has never been an instance of a malfunctioning safety system on any rifle made by Remington or any other manufacturer for that matter.

I will guarantee you that I can find incidents of people that have had "accidents" involving every type of weapon that has ever been manufactured...and the vast majority of these have been blamed on "the damn gun" by the "damn guy" that inadvertently pulled the trigger. I have heard of people claiming that a double action revolver with a nine pound trigger pull went off "accidentally."

If I owned a factory built, unmodified and un-tinkered with, rifle that would fire by itself when the safety was disengaged I can guarantee you that I would arrange to "accidently" shoot something and retire on the money I would collect from the law suit from whatever company built it.

I will also guarantee you that I would have very little problem in finding a lawyer that would be biting at the bit to handle such a case on contingency for a cut of the settlement.

Rick

Well...just so you don't get too shocked...

I just contacted Robar and GA Precision Rifles to ask about "all of these dangerous Remington Triggers/safeties" out there.

One of the smiths at GA Precison was a Marine Armorer assigned to the Sniper section at Quantico and during his time there he was assigned the task of checking and rebuilding the entire USMC inventory of M40 rifles (all Remington 700's with factory triggers and safeties)

Neither of the people I spoke with at these two companies had ever experienced the problems that have been described on this thread...and between the two they have probably built and sold thousands of 700's over the years. Neither company has any loyalty to anyone beyond their customers who buy custom built, tactical rifles from them and they could install any trigger system they wanted to on the rifles they sell. They also sell and build rifles using Winchester, Sako and other brands as well... and they also offer after market triggers and other upgrades for those that want them...so they are not just pitching the Remington brand.

What both of them did say was that they had seen instances where triggers were adjusted way too light and/or the sealing on the adjusting screws was not sufficient to keep the screws from loosening due to recoil and vibrations. This, however, is not a design fault. A worn or defective sear can also cause these types of problems...but those are related to wear and tear or poor quality control, not to system design flaws.

I also feel that Sako, Ruger and Winchester make very nice bolt action rifles and I would just as quickly jump to defend those manufacturers if someone was making claims that I felt were unjustified based on my knowledge and experience with their products.

I own numerous brands of rifles, shot guns and hand guns and I do not feel any more "loyalty" to one company than I do for another...and I do not necessarily feel than any one brand is superior to the other. Each has features and designs that I personally find attractive or I would never have bought them in the first place.

If you don't care for Remington Firearms, or you feel they are poorly designed or unsafe, that is your decision and I don't believe I have tried in anyway to convince you to change that opinion. I have stated my experiences and provided the opinions of others who have vast, first hand, professional experience on this topic. If you choose to feel otherwise that is your business and no one else's.

Are you always this angry and defensive??

Rick

Rick



Are you always this angry and defensive??



Actually I am about as mild-mannered a person as you will ever run into. People hate playing poker with me because I always have a smile on my face. And why shouldn't I have one, life has been more than fair to me. Sure I have had my share of setbacks both personal and financial, but in my sixty plus years I have met all kinds of people from filthy rich to lifers in prison. I always managed to find someone who was not as well off as I was, so what more can you ask for? When I worked in a maximum security prison, I was know as a person who would listen and hear anyone out. I try to do that in all I do, and if you feel I am angry, I apologize to you for that. BUT, if you truly do think that, I must think you don't know what being angry really is. I don't remember for sure the last time I got really angry but it was a fair piece ago.



Now, if you mean I get upset once in a while that is a different story. Yes I get upset when people make statements and never back them up with any hard facts. With this in mind I would appreciate you giving some more information on your statement about the Springfield safety. This is one rifle I have played with for the better part of 45 years and what you said does not agree with any of my findings.



Now while I am still smiling, which I really am, to be totally honest with you I could actually care less about any Remington trigger anyone else owns. I have taken apart many different Remington triggers and still cannot fathom why anyone would design one with an extra piece floating in it. Not many others seem to be able to either except to say "They work". This has been my sole argument in this whole scenario, namely there are better designed triggers than the factory one. Be that it may you and all others who like Remington 700s are welcome to do whatever you like. It means nothing to me. And by the same token it means nothing to me what is written by "experts" one way or the other either. I will admit that Jack Belk was the one that caused enough questions in my mind and to do enough research and inspections on my own that I went the route I did. It was while doing this I discovered a change made in the factory trigger that no one yet has been able to tell me about. I even asked you about it, but you failed to answer the question. I don't know if you don't know the answer or if you don't care. Either is acceptable I suppose, but it does make me wonder. Other than exchanging a couple e-mails on a prospective Springfield action trade I never had any other correspondence with him and certainly none on Remington triggers save what was exchanged on various forums. So if that means I am "Belkanized" so be it. I imagine I could make the same case for others that are being quoted in these threads on the subject by various people including yourself.



BTW, I really feel opinionated is a better word than defensive. Yes, I am most always opinionated until someone shows me the light. I expect the same in others too. Also for your information I originally thought all this trigger talk was nonesense, but was enough intrigued to search it out and draw my present conclusion. If you can say the same that is good enough for me. We will just have to agree to disagree then.



So as "hot core" has said, this is also my last post on this subject. It is obviously too hot for common sense and civil discussion to prevail. I would however welcome any discussion on any part of the 1903 Springfield. Even the much noted two-piece firing pin that is often criticized.



Your sentence about being angry and defensive reminds me of the time someone was interviewing Joe Greene of the Pittsburg Steelers. He was known as "Mean" Joe Greene by a lot of people. When called that he replied, "Why do you call me mean, look at Jack Lambert over there. Why he's so mean he even hates himself!!" By the same token I feel there have been others far more angry or defensive over this typic than I have.



Have a great Fourth of July weekend. It's great to live in such a great country.

Obviously, neither of us can see the smiles on our faces when posting on here.

As for our beloved Springfield 1903's...I have several myself and am building a few more in my off time. I have never found anything about these weapons that I found offensive in any way. I feel the same about 1917 Enfields and US Krags...I own two each of those also. Each of these weapons has pluses and minuses that some people may find offensive and/or unsafe...but I find them all to be great old weapons that I really enjoy building and shooting. I have had people tell me that the US Krag is unsafe because it only has one "for real" locking lug...and I have had people tell me that Enfields are worthless and unsafe because they cock on closing rather than opening. Both statements are absurd in my opinion.

My comment about the three position Springfield safety is based on my reading about it years ago in an old manual and then more recently in a newer book... and then trying it out for myself to see if it actually would drop the firing pin. Example... from Joe Poyer's book: The 1903 Springfield Rifle and it's variations...page 213;

" NOTE... To "safe" the rifle, the safety lever should always be turned fully to the right, If left in the vertical position the firing pin may not be completely locked and may move forward when the safety lever is turned to the left, or "ready" position, causing an accidental discharge."

What I said was not meant as a slight against the design of either the Mauser or the Springfield it was only put forth to show that almost any weapon, even ones that you, yourself, profess to admire, will have something about them that could be viewed by some as "unsafe."

As far as safeties and triggers for Remington 700's are concerned I will stand by what I have said and once again state that if there was a problem with the factory unit or a better and/or safer trigger was needed the Marine Corps armorers would be the first in line to get them...and they haven't done that in the 37 years they have been building, improving, upgrading and maintaining the Corps' sniper rifles. They have jumped around and tried different barrels, bottom metal, scope mounts, rings, and stocks...but the basic action and fire control unit has remained the same all this time.

Later, my friend...let's talk about 03's for awhile!

Rick

Wow. A lot of strong opinions in here, and I don't want to stir anything up since it seems to be winding down, but maybe I can shed a little light gained from my personal, firsthand experience. I work for a mid-sized police dept. on the west coast. Among my other duties, I am a sniper on the SWAT team and have been for over 12 years. Until 2001 we, like most police agencies, used Remingtom M700's- we had 6 of them. They were post '82 models purchased new in 1989 & 1990. When they were brand new, we had all of the triggers adjusted to 3 1/2# so all of the guns would be consistent. They guns were all well taken care of, clean and in good condition.

In August, 2001 we sent the rifles back to Remington and had the triggers re-spec'd because of liability concerns such as have been raised here. Three of the trigger groups were re-placed by the factory with new ones. When we got the guns back, it was like we had 6 new Remington M700PSS rifles. In November, 2001 during training, one of our snipers was preparing to fire while his rifle was sitting on a bipod on the bench. He reached forward and used his trigger finger to push the safety off and the gun fired. He had no fingers anywhere near the trigger and this was witnessed by another teammate.

Upon further testing, we found we could re-create this situation in 3 of our 6 rifles. We immediately deadlined the guns and through subsequent testing, bought much better, much more accurate (and safe) rifles.

These Remingtons were clean, the trigger groups were un-modified and un-adjusted, and there were no bedding issues to blame the problem on. It was a failure of the trigger group. FWIW, during my subsequent research on the matter, I've talked with Army snipers who tell me they've had the same problems. It's not a concern for them, though, since anyone downrange that they shoot needed to be shot anyway. I can't substantiate the army incidents beyond the fact that I've spoken with the shooters involved. I was there and witnessed the incident with our M700PSS. Several other local agencies, after hearing about our switch and the reasoning behind it, have also dumped their Remingtons. It's a real problem.