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What is the standard or norm as to the barrel fitters responsibility when cambering and fitting a new barrel to an action. Cutting, threading and chambering seem obvious but what about the less obvious things such as making sure the action feeds when done? Do you smiths have a list of things you do as part of the barrel fitting process? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | ||
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Geez! customers want everything. All kidding aside, myself I try to make sure it is a turn key rifle when handed over. On occasion a build may come up where a cust. may want something that may not work as well as others as far as cartridges go. Then an explanation for a better option my be in order. In the end its the gunsmiths name and work that comes up when its right or wrong! Better to make it right. There are some smiths on here that make some fine rifles that I would be afraid to take hunting, they are too nice! So who cares if it works. Any way the answer is yes it should function. Blagg Rifles, Eastern OR | |||
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Well, my fine rifles better function. I don't pay just for the bondo and gloss paint. If a smith is rebarreling to a different cartridge, he should be paid the appropriate amount to make it feed and function. Regular rebarreling labor won't cover that type work. Butch | |||
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Function and reasonable accuracy is guaranteed. Witness marks usually provided, depending upon model. Feeding is optional, depending upon client wishes and budget. Test firing (with fired case included) is mandatory unless client specifies otherwise. Caliber (re)marking is included, as is important info marking on bbl's hidden underside. All to be completed to client satisfaction as discussed and agreed upon beforehand. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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You get what you pay for and what you ask for. If you ask for a rifle to be fitted with a new barrel and all you pay for is the fitting then expect it to have issues. Had a friend send off a barrel to be re-bored by lebonty from .375 H&H to .505 gibbs and you bet the thing would not feed. as he never discussed this with cliff nor did he expect it to either www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Well my take is that the rifle needs to function when I get it back. If all I said was "fit a barrel", I would expect the gunsmith to chamber, fit, and crown and confirm feeding and extraction. If it was for the same caliber as the original barrel I would expect him to fix the feeding and extraction at no charge unless there was unknown previous issue with the bolt or magazine. The logic being if I sent you a 308 win and asked you to re-barrel it to a 308 win you should fit the barrel in a mannar that works. If it was for a different caliber say original was a 308 and I asked him/her to re-barrel to a 284 win. I would expect him/her to confirm feeding and extraction and if there was a problem to call me and we would discuss what needed to be done and the fees. Extra's that I always ask for is trueing of the action, bolt, face and lugs. If the rifle has not been bedded, I will ask them to bed it at the same time but that is extra also. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Absolutely, feeding is part of the job. If it's a simple barrel swap, same caliber, there should be no problem. If it's a completly different round than what the action is designed for, then yes, feeding is definitely part of the job, unless the customer has different ideas. However, if the job entails multiple parties ie., one doing the barrel and one doing the stock work, then the final tweaking can't be completed until all the major components are together. After all a person can only do so much to check feeding without the stock. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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If a barrel is fitted in the same chambering, the rifle will feed just as it did before. If it doesn't feed, it never did and there is no reason the gunsmith should be expected to make feeding "part of the job". It's a totally different issue and a totally different job. Barrel fitting and chambering is just that. Gunsmith's charge to fit and chamber and should be expected to charge extra for any magazine modifications. Any time the chambering is significantly different from the original, problems with feeding and function are a distinct possibility. The gunsmith should be aware of the potential for problems and make sure the customer is made to be equally aware. When re-barreling a 98 Mauser to a magnum cartridge, some action work is bound to be required (apart from opening the bolt face). Plainly, this work is over and above the cost of a simple re-barrel. The same criteria should apply to any action and any conversion. Now, having said all this, I have eaten an awful lot of labor when a rifle didn't function as I thought it should. This doesn't mean I'm an exceptional gunsmith or a really nice guy; it means I'm a really stupid gunsmith and a poor businessman! On another thread, a chamber with some marks near the shoulder was cause for concern. When I chambered a 340 Weatherby for a customer recently, the reamer must have picked up a chip and marked the chamber. A 3/16 set back might have fixed it up but the barrel would no longer have fit the inletting. I bought another barrel, chambered it (came out great), and put the scratched one aside to use for myself someday. That was no more than I was obligated to do. The problem was of my own making and it was part of the barrel fitting job. If it had turned out that the barrel was fine but the trigger malfunctioned, there is no way that could have been considered to be "part of the job". If trigger work had been required, it would have been a totally different situation and it would have been proper for me to charge for the additional work. In general, if you contract for a barrel fitting and chambering, you should expect to get just that. If you want more, ask for more and you should get it. Regards, Bill | |||
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Bill or any other gunsmiths, This is a 100% serious question. You are saying that it is impossible to install barrel of the same chambering such that cartridges no longer feed properly? Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Most gunsmiths that I have dealt with state up front what is included. My friend who taught me how to fit barrels, includes: lapping the lugs, trueing the front face, threading, chambering, headspace, test-fire and crown for $75-$125 depending on his mood, caliber, breech etc. Opening the bolt face and altering the extractor are more. Making it feed is extra or the customer's job. You need to discuss that up front. Most of my barreling and my friend's jobs are fitting to an action. If you want a conversion that involves fitting into the stock and making it feed, that is another animal in my opinion. I don't include that in what I would call fitting a barrel. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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airgun 1, He must be a hobbiest. Butch | |||
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If airgun 1 has a gunsmith that will do all that work for that price I am sure he does not carry liability insurance. In this day and age it is not very prudent to not carry insurance. Also as Butch Lambert has stated that gunsmith must be a hobbiest or is independently wealthy. You get what you pay for sometimes. Do it right the first time. | |||
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What Butch said. For me, a VERY basic rebarrel job takes 3-4 hrs and many single shots take up to 8 hrs or more. You can do the math.
No, not necessarily. If the smith doesn't properly radius & polish the rear chamber edge then it could cause difficulties, and some installations require extractor cuts that could prove problematical. But, generally speaking, all such adjustments are an integral part of the basic rebarrel job and are not even considered by the smith to be problems in the usual sense, because of the (very) brief interval before they're automatically corrected as a usual part of the process. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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JD, Thanks...that's the point I am making...even re-barreling to the same cartridge should include the confirmation of basic feeding and extraction. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Most shops barrel fitting includes Threading a new barrel, chambering and head spacing said barrel for specified caliber, If caliber is with in a reasonable range to the old cartridge feeding should be "checked" but maybe not fixed. Truing the receiver, & lapping the lugs is extra in just about any shop. As is test firing. But some smiths will put together a package price and define what it includes and what it does not. That said $125 to fit a barrel is dirt cheep and I surly would not trust the job to that guy with out seeing his work first hand. That's not enough to cover the labor let alone the tools. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Edited: I will refrain from responding. I do not want to violate confidences.
PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Airgun 1, that in itself doesn't qualify him to be good. I could give you a big list of guys that have done that and they are hobbiest. Didn't say he wasn't capable, you just can't make a living doing it for that. Butch | |||
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Heck I.T.D custom gun only charges $75.00 to thread . fit, chamber, headspace, test-fire and crown. I.T.D. is at least equal to factory when factory guns had gunsmiths doing the work, not the p-poor QC of today's factory chambers. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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ETA: Deleteting from the fray.
PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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I probably do know him and if you read my posts, I didn't question his ability. I just said you can't make a living at that. I don't know the other folks that you speak of. Butch | |||
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He might be retired and doing just to occupy time. Airgun I questioned his ability but I did say "with seeing is work first hand" I would give anyone a chance if they can produce a rifle that would serve as a resume. That is, I have more time then money and tools to boot so only a top end project would be my consideration to send to a genuine Gunsmith. I have a shop picked out in my area and they are top notch but slow on delivery because they are swamped year round. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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It's easy to do a Mauser or Remington or similar, takes maybe a couple of hours. For quick-&-dirty rebarreling of unaltered actions of this type the smith can actually set up a kind of assembly line with jigs and fixtures to save time. I don't care HOW good he or anyone else is, IMO if he's/they're doing 1903 Springfields and Winchester high walls for $75-$125 then either he's/they're charging hobbyist prices or else the very simplest rebarreling is all they ever do. I suggest that you consult a real-world smith to find his per-hour rate and then ask him how long it takes him to rebarrel a Mauser. If he quotes a shop rate less than $40/hr then IMO he must have a wife with a good day job or else he's an old has-been like me, with all his machines paid for already and an antiquated sense of prices. 40 hrs/week = ~2000 hrs/year 2000 hrs/yr x $40/hr = $80,000/yr gross $80K minus capital loan repayment, insurance, rent, utilities, taxes, replacement consumables (like tools & liquids), replacement do-over parts (like damaged barrels), replacement hand tools & machines, postage, licences, professional fees for bookkeeping/tax prep, advertising and all the other charges that I've forgotten = (drum roll please).... MINIMUM WAGE! Again, you can do the math. IMO $100/hr or even more is not unreasonable for 'best' work by a 'best' craftsman. OTOH IMO mediocre work by a mediocre workman isn't worth anything much at all. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Edited: I will remove my comments as I do not want to violate confidences as to who does what for who as far as gunsmith services. I will say this: I.T.D. Custom Gun is also a full time full service shop. This is their liviehood and you can see their prices. http://itdcustomgun.com/ PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Airgun, you just THINK your wages are low up there. Wages/income down here in MS are tied for last place in the US and the other 2 losers DON'T include ANY states North of the Mason-Dixon line! Like I said, he's a hobbyist(as you just admitted) or an old has-been like me. Your comment about the machinery being already paid for reveals that you are certainly no businessman; any prudent businessman keeps on setting aside money for new machinery and repairs of the aging stuff even though the actual expense may not occur for years. And if you think I had all the tools I needed back in the '60s when I started, well, you're dead wrong. Bought a new EconoTIG back in 2000 and a used tool-post grinder 2 years ago, engraving tools and 2 engraving blocks about 8 years ago, electric checkering tool, big disc sander, filing machine, etc etc all within the last 10 yrs. And I'm a retired hobbyist; I'm sure that a real full-time working smith would have wanted to buy even more and better tooling. And I don't charge $40/hr either, more like $10/hr. But then again I'm a hobbyist, kinda like your friend(G). Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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edit: the sock worked As for Howard's question, there are so many ways to screw up a barreling job. Even keeping the same cartridge doesn't insure proper feeding. If the mouth of the chamber isn't radiused correctly, it may not feed well at all. IMO, the radius is part of the barreling fee, but feeding a cartridge isn't. However, I check feeding on stock jobs I do before I send the work out. | |||
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I didn't mention it because I beleive radiusing the mouth is an integral part of chambering as is polishing the chamber. ETA: I deleted most of my posts as some folks here have reading comprehension issues and vivd imaginations as to what I wrote anyway. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Just got back from a overnight trip in Hells Canyon. Lots of sun and water. Thanks for all the replies. My idea of barrel chambering pretty much matched Bill Leepers but obviously opinions vary. Guess its up to the smith to properly explain what is required and up to the customer to understand that you get what you pay for. Not sure I understand the comment about needing the stock to unsure proper feeding. I have sent two rifles off to two well regarded smiths and each one specified that they didn't need the stock. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Well, in truth, you are never going to be 100 percent sure a "brand new" and as yet unproven, assembled gun will feed in panic mode until you have something to hold on to, or, can grip the rifle like it is intended, while working, or, slamming the bolt back and forth. The presence of the stock becomes more critical, for instance, when you have a right handed person testing a left handed gun. . _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Now that makes sense. But why on earth would I right handed person want to lower themselves to handle a left handed rifle?  That being said can't you simply hold it in a vise? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I believe the Federal Minimum wage right now is $7.25 per hour. However, the states can set minimum wage laws for various types of businesses, etc. A few states have higher minimum wage, many are the same as federal, and some are much lower. Nevertheless, using 2000 hours (that allows 2 weeks for vacation) times 7.25 equals $14,500.00. I suspect that any full time gunmaker or gunsmith that is grossing $80,000 per year is netting considerably more than $14,500 per year. If they aren't they probably need to take a course or two on time and money management. | |||
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Well there's where you way off base Federal minimum wage is just that it's a federal law that you will be paid in 99.999% of the jobs in the US at least the federal minimum wage. A state's minimum wage can not be lower then the Federal. There are a few exception to the rule but they are few and very far between. As for running of the business. CPA's can do this stuff in thier sleep but a very simplified way of figuring you shop rate Figure out all operating expenses such as Rent, utilities, insurance, licensing, advertising, inventory etc. Calculate cost/value of Assets i.e. machinery, fixtures, and tools. this will all break down to an hourly rate based on a work week. Compare this number to the hourly rate of shops in your area. should be close. But never remove the operating cost of your machine tools. The value of the tool will go down over the years but it's cost to replace never goes down or goes away. That's where you dump that percentage back in the bank and save it for when a tool needs to be replaced. It's been said here before Let the Gunsmith run the shop but get a CPA to run the business www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Howard I am sorry the way this thread is going. If you look at my first post which remains unedited, I answered your question. The insults started from there and I took offense. I should have walked away. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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airgun 1, I read through the whole thread, and I dont think anyone was trying to insult you, or what you said. Sometimes what you read comes through differant to differant people, I think surprise was more the reaction to what you said then insult. My 2 cents. | |||
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When I rebarrel it includes: Truing of reciever, bolt lugs and face, machining the barrel front to rear, tightened, test fired and finally stamped and metal finished. If the customer includes the stock or has me source one, it is fit and bedded to stock. That is stated up front. If it is to be changed to a different cartridge that requires additional work, for instance, feed rails, magazine, bolt face and stops, that is extra and discussed up front. When a complete rifle comes in for a rebarrel, it is handed back ready to shoot and function safely to the best of my ability! No offense Airgun but its a lot more than $125. If I hit the power button on the lathe or mill, its $50 bucks. If a barreled action comes in with nothing more than reciever and barrel, thats what they get back. That does'nt happen often. Blagg Rifles, Eastern OR | |||
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Having the stock on hand is almost mandatory in order for the smith to be absolutely SURE of the feeding, especially on Mausers and similar. The reason for this is the spacing between the top of the magazine box and the bottom of the receiver. If the spacing is too wide then the bullet nose can catch in the gap, causing a jam. If the spacing is too little, i.e. the top of the mag box is actually contacting the bottom of the receiver, then the action is too loose in the wood. Might feed just fine that way but it'll eventually kick out of the stock. IMO the smith must have the stock to ensure proper feeding. The proper gap IMO is ~1/16", even from front to rear. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Barrel Fitters Responsibility
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