I have a pre-64 Model 70 in 300HH. This rifle has the third screw in the barrel, and has a quick on/off side mounted scope. It has a reliable scope on it, and I have had the action professionally bedded. Notwithstanding these improvements, the rifle consistently puts two within a short distance (1.25" or less depending upon the load), and then throws the next one or two shots out roughly two-three inches from the center of the previous to shots. It tends to shoot tighter groups with anemic loads.

Any suggestions for things to check or do? Any suggestions would be greatfully appreciated. Ku-dude

Try shooting all of the shots from a dirty barrel. If the side mount is a G & H make sure that all of the screws are tight and the levers pulled snug.

Ku-dude---

I'd bet dollars to donuts its in the scope or mount if the two groups are horizonal. That's why you see so many M-70s with top mounted scopes and big ugly holes in the side. The Pachmeyer even used two dowel pins in addition to three screws and they STILL strung sideways.

The mount twist with every shot.

[ 11-30-2002, 10:04: Message edited by: JBelk ]

could be a problem with th crown. In older rifles this is the case as mant dont want to touch the metal and destroy the intrensic value of the gun. Since the sidemount was done no collector value now!
lb404

I noticed you said the action had been glassed, and that makes me suspecious as to the use of the forend screw!!!...Glassing will most of the time rise the gun up a few MM's out of the stock and tension on the screw could literally warp the barrel....

I would have to see it to fix it, but if it will shoot two together then it will shoot, all you have to do is find the problem...

JBelk:
Is it possible to "fill" the screw holes when you go to a top mounted scope?

Ray:
I have removed the barrel screw and will test without it. I also had reservations about it.

Thanks to all for your observations and comments.
Ku-dude

I am surely no pre 64 expert, but all three of mine have shot their best with the third barrel scrwew,either very loose or removed.

Your post has me scared, as I am having a beat up old M70 in .300 H&H totally restored. It was left to me by a buddy who died last year. The stock was WAY too short so I had another similar stock installed and all the metal redone as well. I could care less about value as I will retain the rifle until I die,so who cares? I DO want it to shoot decent enough to take an elk though.

Let us know how you make out. Are you using factory or reloads?? Factory ammo has NEVER shot well in my Sako or Rem 700 .300 H&H's BTW.

FN in MT

There are a lot of good suggestions above.

The first thing to do is to tighten the guard screws the right way. Tighten the front one a little and then snug the rear one up some to line it up. Note if the holes in the stock rub on any of the screws. You may have to open up one or more of them so they don't touch. Now tighten the front screw up tight and then snug the rear and note if the barrel moves in the forend. This is with the barrel screw out of course. If the barrel raises up a significant amount then the bedding is not even and should be looked at. If it does not move much then tighten the middle screw just enough to hold the trigger guard.

Now with all the screws tight and the front barrel screw out push on the barrel sideways at the forened. If it clicks or moves in an uneven manner it's the bedding causing part of the problem for sure. As Ray says he would have to see the rifle to know where to start but I have given you some ideas that work.

Shoot only handloads with Sierra bullets. The factory loads that I have shot are awful. A load to start with is the 165 gr Sierra SBT, Fed 215 primers and 70 grs of H4831. Seat the bullets off the lands about .030" and only shoot full length sized cases.

Now to the scope. Remove the sidemount scope and get some Weaver bases and regular top mounts and mount another good scope on that rifle.

As Ray has known for decades and I just found out this year the M70 .300 H&H is one of the great shooters. I would not give up on it. Get back to us on what loads you are shooting and what you are going to do next.

In Bedding pre-64s with the forearm screw I have carried the bedding out to the screw with some success.
In remounting the scope on top the holes can be welded up in the side although welding on these can be a challenge. Regards, Bill.

Last year I had a problem with my Pre-64 270. It was really acting weird. I would shoot at 100 yards. Lets say if The first one was 4"high the next would be 1"high. If I shot 4 or 5 rounds I would have two different groups. One 4" high and one 1" high. Someone on this list had me back off the barrel screw. What I did was loosen the screw 1/2 turn then shoot. Then I loosened it 1/2 more, finally it made one group I just tuned it in with the barrel screw. The last time I shot it at 100 yards it shot where it was sighted in for and the group was right at or a little under 1" I would give this a try. Ron

Well, it took me a month, but today I got back to the range with my M70. I tried a new load (for me) of 75grs of AA 3100 with 180gr Nosler BT with both WW LMR and 215M primers. The WW primers ran about 30fps faster than the 215 load. The WW was a too hot in my rifle and the 215 was warm. I believe that I will drop back a full grain with the WW and a halfgrain with the 215.

JBelk-the rifle is stringing horizontally and it is the sight mounts. I tried the iron the aux receiver sight, and it shot a half inch at 100 and 3" at 300yds. I like being able to switch to the receiver sight and if I went to a standard mount, I couldn't do that. I'd also have to repair all the holes in the receiver. I have even given some thought to a scout mount, but don't know how you'd go about that. I am surprised that these holes cannot be filled and "welded", but the bluing on this rifle is perfect, and I really hate to get into "reblueing" this old beauty.

The side mount is a Paul Jaeger model that looks like it preceeded the G&H mount. It fits much looser than the G&H mount, which I have had fair success with on .270's. I wonder what would happen if I drilled and tapped the side bar so that it could be tighted down more securely?

I found that scopes are nice in identifying and tracking game as well as shooting it. A receiver sight is great for shooting out to 100 yds, but I really like a scope after 100yds.

Any suggestions? I am all ears. Ku-dude

Interesting post.
I asked similar questions last year regarding a similar (pre-64 300H&H) rifle belonging to a PH buddy of mine.
It would put 2 shots within 1/2" of each other and the third would walk. It had also been through the gamut of bedding etc. We tried a new 'scope, different loads, loosening & tightening stock screws. We still have not established what the problem is and since he is gone for most of the year with the rifle as one of his battery it does not give us much time to fiddle.
We thought that headspacing might be a problem since we were getting a couple of seperations, but it checked out OK on the guage. Changing the sizer die setting and using different cases negated that problem.
Tony will be at booth 2664 at Reno SCI if someone wants to stop by and chat to him and perhaps give some suggestions.

KU Dude---

HERE is a thread at huntamerica that gives some options for filling the side mount holes.

One sure way of making your troubles *better*, but probably not cure it is to switch to the lightest scope you can find. When the recoil is acting on something away from it's axis it has more force acting on it with increased weight.

There can be more than one right answer to this.

Since you can shoot the peep well and like that system except for the third shot in a group with the side mounted scope try this test. Shoot the rifle from a cold barrel with a tested load to see if it stays sighted in. In other words is the point on impact with the first shot right where it should be say 2" high at 100 yds?

If it is then be happy! Almost all of my big game hunting is over with the first shot. I hunt by choice, like others, with single shot rifles and if you think back on big game kills it's just fun blasting after the first shot as it's over anyway.

Now if the rifle does not stay sighted in it may or may not be the bedding so you can test this with the peep sights. Once this test is over this is what I would do if it stays sighted in with the peep sights.

I would get top mounting system for it and remove the receiver sight and just use the open sights. The regular Weaver bases are nice and low and most barrel mounted open sights can be seen over them. Other competative bases to the Weaver system may be as low like the Leu QRW's.

In summary you can't use both a scope and iron sight with the same shot. In general modern scopes are more fun than old scopes or peep sights. So if the above advice does not work then put on a new scope.

What are you doing with the barrel screw?

Well, tonight my blackpowder-gun-building friend and I got finished re-working the Paul Jaeger scope mount that came on my rifle 300HH.

You may remember that it has a side mount, similar to a Griffin and Howe mount, but with only one tightening/tensioning screw amidships. Poor Design. My last shooting session, with the barrel screws out, the stringing was horizontal. (With the screw in, it was all over!) JBelk point to "wobbly" mounting as the likely culprit.

We drilled two 1/4" holes as far apart as we could, and put two tensioning bolts with a dove tail cut in them through the female side of the dovetail mounting. By tightening a wing nut, the bolt is pulled to one side and engages the dove tail of the basefirmly tightening the top to the mount base. I believe we may have fixed the problem. I do know that it is much more stable than even my G&H mounts, which uses a similar system to tighten the base, and they have given pretty good service on my .270s.

We will see. Next step is to shoot it. Keep your fingers crossed. I will report. Ku-dude

PS: I'd use my iron sights if my old eyes weren't so, so - - - old! And I handload using collet dies, so I don't think it is a head space issue at this point. I do appreciate your all's interest and comments. K-d

[ 01-24-2003, 08:51: Message edited by: Ku-dude ]

Ku Dude,
What da ya mean your eyes, if you can shoot 3" groups at 300 yards then there is nothing wrong with your eyes.

Based on that why bother with a scope...just packing extra weight and you won't shoot any better than that with a scope.

Option 2, put a Griffen and Howe mount on the gun and have it tigged on...I have had very good luck with that double lever Griffen and Howe and it leaves the reciever slick when the scope is removed, something no top mount will do.

Not sure how I did it, but this doesn't belong in this forum. Sorry can't delete.

One more vote for standard scope base hole spacing and support for one-piece bases (including double-dovetail). I am not a gunsmith myself, but would imagine that the demand for a one-piece base would be limited. Better to expect a smith to custom-make a one piece base for the few who really must have it than to make an action that precludes a whole lot of two-piece bases. I am really fond of the double-dovetail bases both because of their clean lines and strength.
Paul Carpenter

[ 01-23-2003, 21:01: Message edited by: pfcarpenter ]

I would guess that your groups are suffering from uneven locking lug contact, which could have to do with receiver bedding that's causing the action to flex . Clean the back of the bolt lugs, then apply black ink from a Sharpie or Magic Marker. Work the action again and see if one lug isn't bearing a good deal more than the other. Back when Winchester was still building target-grade Model 70s, they found that - overwhelmingly - those rifles that produced fliers demonstrated uneven lug contact. This concept is so critical that riflesmith D'Arcy Echols remachines the locking lugs and lug seats, then laps them into full contact before installing a new barrel. This is basic, bedrock, fundamental accuracy mechanics......

One other very simple solution: I can't tell you how many factory rifles I've owned that would produce consistent fliers. At least 50% of the time, changing primers would eliminate the fliers. For example, my favorite .300 Winchester always produced a flier on the second or third shot when it was new and I was getting to know that rifle. I went from Federal 215 Match to regular Federal 215 primers, and those fliers went away, never to return.......

AD

Ray,
I'd use those iron sights if I could see the animals better. If its one animal, by itself, OK; but I can't separate 'em out of a crowd with my naked eye. I know. I ran into this problem in 96 when my eyes were better, and I could not separate out the animal my ph wanted me to shoot in a group with my naked eye.

You know the drill. "He's the one that just wiggled his ears. Now he's batting his eyes."

I think I may have solved my scope mount problem. I turned a Paul Jaeger mount into a "bastard" G&H by adding those bolts. I have had two rifles with those double lever G&H mounts, and both worked flawlessly. This fix is not as fast or pretty, but it accomplishes the same thing. Wish me luck. If this works, I'll get you or JBelk to make me some "pardy" bolts with "pardy" levers to tighten them down. Ku-dude

PS: Its nice to have you back. K-d

Allen,
If this doesn't correct it, I'll have a look at those lugs. K-d