What are your thoughts on this, good points and bad? Is it worth the expence?

Bakes

Hey"
If you have a large contour barrel,fluting does help reduce weight.I think most people,like the looks of fluting,rather than what benifits it performs.
1geejay
www.shooting-hunting.com

Bakes, there is little benefit in either weight reduction or cooling area. You can figure out the weight reduction and it is not much and the surface area increase is minimal also. They do look good, you might have to be satisfied with that.

There have been some arguments that the barrels become stiffer by fluting and that concept is completely full of holes (or flutes).

Fluting a barrel will not stiffen it.But a larger diameter barrel may weigh the same as a smaller diameter barrel after it is fluted and it will be stiffer.

Thanks for the replys, I don't mind the look of it myself but if it is purely cosmetic then I think i'll save my money.

Bakes

Ah, the fluting thing again. I have to laugh every time this comes up as it never goes anywhere. I, like many others have researched the physics behind it and find it has only three purposes.
1.Cooling. very minimal, not enough to make a difference to the average shooter.
2.To remove weight. Common sense tells us this works.
3.Lastly, it 'can' look cool, if that is important to you.

As far as stiffness, well Bakes it just doesnt make a barrel any stiffer. To make it short, you can not remove material from a cylinder, and make it stronger. Anyway, research for yourself elsewhere as this will get heated I imagine and many will speak out with lots of rants and raves. My advice, not worth the effort, nor the expense. Spend the money to upgrade optices, or something. Good luck and Happy Shooting.

JAG
Hood River, OR

Here is a few threads that discussed this topic:

http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=002673

http://www.serveroptions.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001323

You will find it at the very least, good reading.

Happy shooting
JAG

JAG
Thanks for your input. As far as I can see the only thing it would do is save weight, but as I'm not into mountain hunting (no mountains around here)the saving would be negligible. I'm a fairly hefty bloke and I think I can carry around a few extra grams. As to looking cool, well Ive never been into that, you only have to see what I wear
I was thinking of getting it done to my next project but as you said, I'll spend the money elsewere.
Thanks again
Bakes

Anybody for spiral flutes?
Don't get us started!

Bakes,
I think that you have made a wise choice. You are right about the looks, I was never really impressed by the looks of fluting.

Regards,
JAG

I have a couple fluted barrels and the only one that had any noticable change was a factory Bushmaster barrel on a flattop AR. Yeah, it's lighter. Big deal. Match or factory, they shoot great, but the ones I had fluted shot great anyway and fluting can introduce all the "machining stress" bugaboos that are the basis for another string of debates.

As far as stiffness, someone described a fluted barrel as "stiffer than a round barrel of the same weight but not as stiff as a round barrel of the same diameter".

Redial

I asked Daniel Lilja, who many of you know, about the claims that fluted barrels are stiffer. Now I asked in regards to to exact dimesion barrels, to start with, flute one, which is stiffer. The unfluted. Anyway here is his reply, hope it helps clear this up for you Bakes a bit more.

Regards,
JAG

Reply starts below...

Hi Jason,

Everything you said is true.

Comparing two barrels of the same length and diameter, one fluted, the other not, the unfluted barrel will be stiffer. The comparison we were making was of two barrels of the same weight and length but not the same diameter. To have two barrels like that weigh the same, the larger diameter barrel would have to be fluted. And so, the fluted barrel, of a larger diameter to weigh the same, is stiffer due to the increase in the diameter. Stiffness comes from diameter. And even if some materail is removed through fluting, the increase in diameter of the rest of the barrel will make it stiffer overall.

Hope this explains what we were trying to state.

Regards,

Dan

From: Daniel Lilja
e-mail: lilja@riflebarrels.com
web site: http://www.riflebarrels.com
P.O.Box 372, Plains, Montana 59859
Voice: 406-826-3084
FAX: 406-826-3083

Hate to go against the flow, and mebbe Todd E can comment on the engineering, but a fluted barrel CAN be stiffer. I don't think it'll matter to joe shooter, because it's pretty much at the edge.
Call weissman in Bryan College Station. Look at the steyr scout, even look at octagon barrels (slabs, not fluted, but not round). Do you think the steyr scout would be fluted if it wasn't a stiffening action? They could have made the barrel .5" shorter, and it would have the same weight. It's much more exspendive to spend the time machining for that one.
But, does it matter? Like the cooling, as it can double or more the surface area, are you going to notice? NOPE. If you are blasting away with 50 rounds in 2 mins, the surface area wont help a bit.. you'll still have a barrel cum wood burner in your stock.. and now with those purdy flutes.
Not arguing both sides, but it is stiffer. You just can't ignore those itty bitty pencil barrels, with flutes, that don't bend under their own weight
jeffe

jeffeoso, Russ and I rarely agree on anything but he clearly nailed it on this one, pure and simple.

You can not take around barrel and make it octagon or flute it and expect it to be stiffer. The opposite is true though, it will be less stiff. I am also an engineer but you don't need an engineer to muddy the waters. I could tell you that the stiffness is based on the "moment of inertia" and that this mathematical formula is based on the product of the mass of the material resisting movement times the square of the distance to the center of the movement. And that the material removed only reduces the moment of inertia. But I am not going to do that.

Customstox,
thanks for the reply. I don't agree with you, but thanks for being polite about it.
jeffe

Okay,
Now that i've been thinking about it, I'll toss out some examples of structures that are lighter than it's "pair" in weight, but approximately the same in volume, and we can talk about it.

Cardboard vs equal thinkness of paper (corrogate)

Corrogated tin vs "flashing" (i wouldn't walk on flashing)

Corrogated Pipe vs straight

I-beams vs iron chunk

Ridged steel (or anything else) rims vs huge hunk

fluted barrels, which become ridged tubular columns, rather than taper pipe.

fluted bevarge cans (remeber these?) vs EXTREMELY lightened alum. cans. The beverage industry determined it was cheaper to use LESS al. and ad the ridges, but customers bought less due to "newness and it-aint-normal"

litty bitty steyr scout barrels, vs same diameter tube.

I just can't see where centuries of weight reduction and increased strength wont apply to barrels.

someone help me with this, as to quote Dennis "that just dont make no damn sense" to me
jeffe

jeffesoso, you are talking apples and oranges with your examples.

The I beam with a square billet of steel for example. If the square billet is of the same outer dimensions of the Ibeam then the billet is stiffer. The Ibeam has economy of strenght, that is putting the metal where it is best needed but it is still less stiff.

If you take a finished rifle barrel and flute it (cut away supporting material where it does the most good), it will be less stiff after you are done fluting and you can take that to the bank whether you agree or not. It is basic structural analysis.

If you are using the argument of a fluted barrel versus an unfluted one of the same weight then I agree but that is not what happens when you flute.

A couple of non techical issues that I hate about fluted barrels.

Firstly, the rifle is uncomfortable to hold by the barrel.

Secondly, when you put the barrel in a vice you can't always position the gun how you want.

Thirdly, when you bed the way I do, which is to position the barrel with tape, but have some quick setting compound in the forend tip in front of the tape so the tape can be removed and the pad formed by the quick setting compound used for location, the flutes do not make life any easier.

Mike