Gentlemen,

We had quite an argument here the other day, and most people seem to argue that the 308 Winchester is more accurate than the 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser.

Well, to settle that argument, we are in the process of putting together a match grade 6.5 x 55.

We are building it on a Hall bench rest action, and a heavy barrel from Hart.

We will let you know how things turn out.

Hard to prove anything with just one rifle, unless you set a world record.

GSF 1200,

I agree with you.

But our friends here made a flat statement that if you take two identical rifles, one a 308 and one a 6.5x55, the 308 will win every time.

We do have several rifles with similar specs as the one we are putting together.

We will have to compare the results when we get them.

I'm having visions of pinheads and dancing angels...

[ 09-15-2002, 19:00: Message edited by: Slingster ]

Been a couple of articles in Precision Shooting over the years about the 6.5x55 for long range work. With today's good 6.5mm match bullets and a proper chamber (tight neck, neck turned brass, tight base, 1-1/2 degree throat angle, bullets seated into the lands 0.010" or so, good match barrel, and most important, assembled correctly, yes, the 6.5x55 is as good or better than the 308. I do not know if Lapua makes brass, but if so, I would use Lapua. Don't make the barrel too light or too short, I would use at least a H.V. taper and 26 inches. There was a post on either Benchrest or Xtreme Accuracy forum a few days ago about the 6.5x55 over the 6.5x284, you should go to those forums and search and read the comments.

Check the front receiver ring for runout and correct if needed, lap the bolt lugs, Set the barrel up properly in the lathe, use snug pilot bushings, make sure the reamer follows the bore for a concentric chamber, carefully crown with the 11 degree crown, either full float the barrel or bed the first two inches tight with the receiver, install good pillars, and go set some records. Jewell 2 oz trigger of course, top the rifle with a Nightforce 12x42. 142 grain Match Kings with the Meplat uniformed. Or the 139 grain Norma.

The 308 has a good reputation as it was an available cartridge that met the Benchrest needs in the 60's, and was used in some very well assembled rifles. I have a 35 pound classic benchrest rifle of the mid 60's chambered in 308, I will take a photo later today and let you gents see what was used back then. In addition to good gun construction, the reason the 1960's vintage guns shot so well was the stability of the big 1-1/2" diameter barrels, heavy single shot custom actions, heavy stocks, and big Unertle scopes.

Same shooter for both guns huh?

John,

I have a tight neck reamer - neck diameter of 0.294, and the barrel is stainless heavy made by Hart.

The action is a Hall, and in my experience they do not come any better.

The rifle is being bedded right now, in a McMillan BR stock painted by Tommy Mederedith light blue metalic.

The only problem I see might be the brass. The only ones I have are Remington's.

Bear Claw,

I am afraid I am the only one doing any shooting here when it comes to serious shooting.

The jokers I have for help are so unreliable, they would shoot out a barrel before they can shoot a decent group.

Can someone dig up the records of Remington 40X rifles. As I recall the grouping of all of the cartridges was in line with the lightest recoil grouping the best.

The main cause of mechanical failure is improper assembly. So as the gunsmith before me pointed out it's the detail of the work. This extends to the components too.

So building the 6.5 X 55 will not prove anything but it will be a nice rifle for match shooting at almost any range. I would select a quick twist to use the VLD bullets.

Saeed, I'm afraid I'll have to agree one accurate rifle does not prove much. With the quality you are putting into this 6.5, probably almost anything would be very accurate.

I think the .308 has an INHERENT accuracy that's hard to beat. Many 6.5 rifles running around are military surplus and never built for great accuracy so it's rather difficult to get a good comparison.

Still your tests will be very interesting and I eagerly await your results.

Gentlemen,

I am planning on installing a scope on the rifle tomorrow, and will post a photo of it.

I have also found that we have some 120 and 140 grain Sierra Match King bullets. I might have some Lapua match bullets, but I will haver to look for them.

I would look for some Norma or Lapua brass for this project. The Remington and Winchester brass I`ve had for my 6.5x55 has had a base diameter of .473 instead of the .480 that is euro spec. I don`t know what your reamer is cutting but there is no point in introducing slop in a bench gun with bad brass.....Joe

Saeed
You can send me the loser! Really, I wont mind!

Both cartridges are fine rounds, and very accurate. I'll be watching for the results. I wouldn't even venture a guess as to the winner, and we have both cartridges between my wife, and myself.

John, you beat me to it But if Saeed decides to sell the 6.5X55 win or lose I would be very interested.

Gentlemen,

Here is a photo of our completed rifle.



I installed a Leupold 6.5 x 20 scope on it, just like the one we used on our 308 rifles.
The barrel is finished at 26 inches.

Now I have to prep some cases for it, and will let you know how our shooting results are as we develop the loads.

I have found some Lapua 138 grain Scenar match bullets too, and will try them next to the MK we have.

Saeed,

Do try the Lapua bullets. By coincidence I tested my first load using these yesterday. Accuracy is really good. What you should try are Lapua Scenar either 123 or 139 grain. Where I was shooting, at Bisley, there was no opportunity to shoot off a bench, so these results were from prone. Even so, it was shooting single-hole groups. This was the starting load, as Lapua seem to like to push things a bit.

Load was:

Lapua Brass
Lapua Scenar 123 grain bullet
47.2 grains N160 (Lapua max recommended load is 50.4 )
Fed 210 primer

By the way, the UIT world record, a perfect 600 points x 600, was set in 1990 by a Norwegian using Lapua Scenar 6.5 bullets.....

I assume you will have a fast twist-rate in this? It will be needed for these bullets.

Patrick

I really look forward to the results. In my opinion, in IDENTICAL RIFLES (hard to do!!), USING BULLETS OF EQUAL QUALITY IN WORKED-UP ACCURACY LOADS, the 6.5X55 will shoot as well as the .308!!

It will be interesting, but unless the .308 you are using for comparison will shoot in the low ones at 100 meters in perfect conditions, then it is not as accurate as .308s are capable of being.

Fun project though. Can't wait for the results.

Saeed,

My money is on the 6.5x55 - one accurate rifle proves either that the 6.5x55 is clearly superior or that the test is 'inconclusive' due to having tested only one rifle .

Which side of the argument were you on?

Do you suffer from some sort of visual impairment or did you wear your welding goggles when selecting the colour for spraying the stock?

[ 09-16-2002, 18:31: Message edited by: 1894 ]

1894,

Just because you have no taste, don't make funny comments about my new rifle

I did not choose the paint job actually, I got a whole stack of stocks, and asked Tommy to paint them in different colours.

It just so happens that I picked this one for this rifle.

I hardly think the color the stock affects the accuracy, and IF it does try another stock

Saeed,
I love Lapua cases, they have less capacity than Norma and they need a lighter load (-1grs).
My favourite load is Federal LR gold match primers, Lapua cases, Lapua Scenar bullet, 46grs of N160 Vithavuory Oy powder but this is an hunting load, a match rifle made for a friend of mine use 45grains of N160. OAL=79/80mm.

bye

sorry
Lapua Scenar 139grs, I forgot.

Rather than doing two different rifles, how about doing one rifle with switch barrels in each caliber? If you use the american spec Swede brass that is appropiate.

It would be tough to say that one is more or less accurate than the other without using an equal quality of components. The Remington brass that I have is definitely not match quality. So far as powder, you could probably get by with Vv550 or Varget or Reloader 15 in both in order to cut down on one variable. The grain weight would not be the same for the two calibers, but at least the velocity spread would hopefully be the same.

How do you intend to do the actual load testing?
To get really consistent brass, I will load up 100 cases as equally as possible after prepping and sorting by weight, run them across the chronograph, write the velocity with a marker on the brass, put them in the same pattern as the target, then look for 10 or 20 pieces of brass that form a nice tight group as well as having consistent velocity. You will probably run into a problem doing this at 100 yards because a lot of velocity related variations don't seem to show up at this close range.

My vote is for the 308, but simply because there are quite a few components which have been designed and tested around that exact round. Real world results probably dictate that either could be gotten below 1/2 moa without much trouble.

I have been shooting a 6.5x55 for the past year in "F" class competition and as well shoot a couple of 308s and have shot others.
This 6.5 is built on a 1965 M70 action with the threads recut and the locking seats. The bolt is trued and bushed. It wears a 8" twist Shilen SS barrel of HV contour 26" long chambered with a .290" neck and a paralell throat of .2643 dia and 1.5 degree angle in. It is bedded on an aluminum block in a MacMillan Marksman stock (weighted). With a Weaver V24 scope it weighs about 14 pounds. I shoot 142 Sierras with 4831sc powder at about 2780fps. I test at 300M shooting 10 shot strings and this rifle shoots right at the 1/2 minutelevel or groups of roughly 1 1/2 inches. Best 5 shot groups at 100 yd are right around .3"with the average being closer to .450 (damn flyers!).
The 308 is built on a pre-war M70 action also with the threads and seats recut and the bolt trued. It is bedded in Acraglas in a laminated stock. The barrel is a cutrifled barrel in stainless by Ron Smith of Wimborne AB. I contoured it slightly lighter and it is also 26"long. With a T15 Weaver it weighs about 12 pounds. Shooting 168 Sierras and 748 it is also a solid 1/2 minute rifle and performance is generally about the same as the 6.5. The 6.5 is, however, a bit easier to shoot probably due to it's greater weight and lighter recoil.
My best shooting 308 was a 10 1/2 pound rifle with a Hart 14" twist barrel built on a 40x action glued into a Brown precision SPG stock. With this rifle I shot aggregates in the low .3s and a best of .263 for 5 5 shot groups in competition. The best group in competition was a .108 at 100 yds. In this rifle I used 150 Sierras and 322 powder. I don't think it is likely that a 6.5x55 would shoot at this level even if purpose built to shoot lighter bullets than the 140s. I think the 6.5x55 case is larger than is necessary even for long range work. The main advantage of the 6.5 is it's ability to shoot bullets of high BC at decent velocities with light recoil. In order to match th BC of the 142s you have to go with a 200gr 30 cal and they kick a bit more.
Ultimately though, in similar rifles the potential is not widely different probably on the order of 1/8 moa difference. A big deal in short range BR but lost in the wind at long range. Right now I rate the accuracy potential of long range capable cartridges this way:
1. 6BR Norma
2. 308
3. 6.5x55 or 260 Rem
4. 6.5/284
5. Larger 30s
Keep in mind that the differences are likely to be quite minute and will vary according to individual rifles' capabilities. It is worth noting that at the recently fired "F" class World Championships all of the top shooters used a 6.5 of one sort ranging from the 6.5x55 to the 6.5/284 and 6.5/06. This may simply reflect the current popularity of the 6.5 bore as much as any accuracy superiority. It is the "flavour of the month".
For short range work the list is as follows:
1. 6PPC
2. 22PPC
3. 6BR Rem
4. 223
5. 308 or reduced capacity version thereof.
It has been my observation that a properly built 30/40 Krag will very nearly equal a 308 (I've done it).
I will continue to shoot the 6.5x55 for the foreseeable future since I have barrels to use up! I will also always have a 308 waiting in the wings. Regards, Bill.

Progress report?

The jokers I have for help are so unreliable, they would shoot out a barrel before they can shoot a decent group.

You suppose that using a couple of them as target backers may inspire them?

Question
Does any one have experience with Borders barrels in 6.5? Or any caliber?
Jim

Gentlemen,

The rifle is ready, we are in the process of preparing some brass for it.

I have found about 2,000 new cases made by Winchester, so I have had the boys busy preparing them like this:

1. We resize all the cases.
2. Deburr the flash holes.
3. Uniform the primer pockets.
4. Trim them to uniform length.
5. Weigh them and segregate them by weight.

All the above has been done, now I have to turn the necks down, as this chamber is a tightneck.

Turning cases is one of those jobs I do not trust any of the jokers with, so I have to do it myself.

arkypete,

I would love to use them for target backers, trouble is that activity is illegal here too.

We did lock one of them up for a while in the store.

I keep a list of what we have in the store, and this particular joker is the one who helps me orgenize the store, so he realy knows it as well as I do.

One day, I sent him up to get some bullets. I gave him the make, caliber, type and bullet weight of the ones I wanted him to get.

He went up, and came back a few minutes saying there was no more bullets of the type I asked him to get.

I checked again in my list, and found that we should have at least a few thousands of them.

I sent him up again, telling him to look carefully. Walter was a witness to all this.

Our joker came down again, still without the bullets, insisting there wasn't any left.

I told him to go up one more time, and look very carefully, as if he came back without them, and I went up afterwards and found them, I would lock him up there in the store overnight.

Sure enough, he went up and came back again without any bullets.

I took him up with me, and sure enough, the bullets were right there on the shelf!

I stood by the door, and asked him to get one of those boxes. As he went in, I went out and locked the door with him inside.

I went down to Walter, and told him what happened.

Walter decided he wanted to have some fun.

He went up to the store, knocked on the door, and asked the guy if he wanted to have any food or drink. The answer came back in the negative.

Next Walter told him just as well, as if he drank or ate anything, he might need to answer the call of nature, and if he did that in my store, I might decide to lock him for a month!

Saeed

I think is the first time, I seen a rifle in blue metallic, was it an option like when you order a car?.

I bet it were that crazy gunsmith Walter that choosen the paint. What else has he done to "improve" this rifle. Any special turnings to make the barrel vibrate more consistent

Why not recamber this rifle later to 6,5X284 NORMA and see what the 308 and 3006 has to offer

/ JOHAN

[ 09-25-2002, 12:49: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

Here is a thought.
After testing it in your tunnel at 100 yards, how about sending the rifle to me and I will test it at longer ranges. That way, you can be assured of an even more thorough comparison. Besides, that electric blue stock is my favorite color.

If the 6.5 doesnt fare well in this match then its already got a cop out, what color is the 308 stock?

Looking forward to your findings.

Gentlemen,

These are the first groups I have fired in this rifle. I thought I will start with the lighter bullets, to break in the barrel as well.

Prior to these groups, I have only fired 3 rounds through it, to sight in the scope.

Sierra 120 grain Match King - Molly coated
Federal 210M primers, Winchester brass, OAL 2.960"

All are 5 shot groups at 100 yards.

35.0 VVN 140 - 2537 fps - 0.325"
36.0 2647 - 0.286
37.0 2680 - 0.364
38.0 2731 - 0.350

I will keep you all updated on our results.

I was sure that blue stock would affect group size.
Nice shooting!

Gentlemen,

Someone asked how I manage to sight in the scope in just 3 rounds, so may be I should explain.

I always bore sight the scope by looking through the barrel - Yes Walter, with the bolt removed!? LOL! What else is he going to come up with

I then use a clean target, aiming at the center of it. Two more shots were fired to bring the bullet close to the point of aim.

Very simple really. Although I have seen people shoot a couple of boxes and still cannot get the bullets on target.

Saeed, I hunt moose with a .308 and I'm really impressed by those groups you shot.

So now I want to achieve the same results, the moose in Sweden are ridiculously small sometimes so this can indeed be needed.

So, my question is this: do you think I should get a blue stock for my .308, or is that specific color fine-tuned for the 6,5x55? What color do you recommend for a Sako Forrester?

Regards,
/HerrBerg

[ 09-23-2002, 23:30: Message edited by: HerrBerg ]

Gentlemen,

Here is an update.

Sierra 120 grain Match King - Molly coated
Federal 210M primers, Winchester brass, OAL 2.960"

All are 5 shot groups at 100 yards.

35.0 VVN 140 - 2537 fps - 0.325"
36.0 2647 - 0.286
37.0 2680 - 0.364
38.0 2731 - 0.350
39.0 2779 - 0.358
40.0 2829 - 0.243
41.0 2889 - 0.317
42.0 2987 - 0.300
43.0 3031 - 0.284
44.0 3103 - 0.172

Varget
36.0 2554 - 0.150
37.0 2632 - 0.236

Saeed,

Impressive indeed - I'm interested in why you are using such fast powders?

I predict a .00something group from this rifle....

Saeed,
I'm very partial to 6.5x55. Glad to see this old warhorse getting a run. I think at 100m it's going to be difficult to work out which is more accurate.
I would clamp both rifles side by side in two vices / rifle clamps and shoot over 400 metres.

Would be a very interesting test.

Saeed,

I'd echo 1894's query. N140 does seem fast for this application, even though you are getting very good results.

The other thing I'm curious about is the OAL. How far off the lands does that get you? Does the barrel have any freebore?

This is a fascinating project, and I for one very much appreciate you sharing the results with us. Keep up the good work!

Patrick

THOSE GROUPS ARE WAY TOO TIGHT--I thinkthe only way to settle this will be to strap them into a vise and go to 300 yds!! Awsome shooting guys!