I have a very nice machine shop but only do minor gunsmithing work.
I have been thinking about offering the use of my shop to a qualified gunsmith in exchange for him doing gun work for me.
What is the downside that I should be aware of.
Also, what would be a fair exchange, shop hours for gunsmithing hours. Would it be one for one or something else.
I have a Bridgeport with DRO (Kurt Swivel Vise)+ Power Feed), very good condition (about 12 years old), a pristine Clausing 13 inch lathe (No taper), a Tool & Cutter Grinder, Band Saw, Buffalo Drill Press, etc. Also have most accessories that are used with the machines.

Damage to your equipment should be your top concern. As a rule, people don't exhibit the same amount of care with your stuff as they do theirs.

Eventually one of you will try to take advantage of the other and it will end in a nasty divorce. Things like this rarely end well.

quote:

Things like this rarely end well.

wise words here

I'd say it's fairly rare to find someone who A) can be trusted, B) is competent on the machines and C) is already a good smith, who doesn't ALREADY HAVE most of this.

All I can say is, BEWARE!
Regards, Joe

There was a very interesting article published this past week in the Minneapolis Start and Tribune about a fellow who wanted to do fine woodwork but didn't want to buy all of the really good expensive tools necessary, and also didn't want to work in his cold garage over the wintertime.

So he set about looking for a place to rent tools, but he still didn't have the place to use those tools.

That got him thinking. What about a business where you put the two together? After a year or two studying the concept he and his business partners went ahead and leased a large space and purchased about $200,000 worth of tools and opened the door to anyone who wanted to use the tools. I am not sure of the pricing, but I thinks its something like $50 for a day, and less if you pay on a weekly basis, and even less if you pay on a monthly basis.

At first he thought that he would only get hobbiests to use the place. But all of a sudden he started getting contractors and large businesses that wanted to use the place as well, becasue then they didn't have to capitalize their tools or buy special items for one time use, etc.

Now the place is booming and he is thinking about selling franchises. In addition, he is getting calls from all over the US about the concept and other business aspects.

I wonder if the same concept could not also work with metal tools.

1. As with all businesses, you have to determine your costs ahead of time so you can make a reasonable profit without overcharging. You don't want to overcharge because that drives away customers. So, if you have machines and you are leasing them out or letting people rent them, you include in the price an amount for eventual replacement of the tool. In addition, you take depreciation on the tool when figuring your taxes.

2. You get some decent insurance for not only negligence liability, but also for major tool breakage. And you include those costs in your overall expense chart so you know what to charge to make a decent profit.

3. And finally, you don't let anyone use the tool unless they are competent in using it.

Good luck on your business.

watch your reputation and check your insurance....things like this rarely go smoothly...

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
There was a very interesting article published this past week in the Minneapolis Start and Tribune about a fellow who wanted to do fine woodwork but didn't want to buy all of the really good expensive tools necessary, and also didn't want to work in his cold garage over the wintertime.

So he set about looking for a place to rent tools, but he still didn't have the place to use those tools.

That got him thinking. What about a business where you put the two together? After a year or two studying the concept he and his business partners went ahead and leased a large space and purchased about $200,000 worth of tools and opened the door to anyone who wanted to use the tools. I am not sure of the pricing, but I thinks its something like $50 for a day, and less if you pay on a weekly basis, and even less if you pay on a monthly basis.

At first he thought that he would only get hobbiests to use the place. But all of a sudden he started getting contractors and large businesses that wanted to use the place as well, becasue then they didn't have to capitalize their tools or buy special items for one time use, etc.

Now the place is booming and he is thinking about selling franchises. In addition, he is getting calls from all over the US about the concept and other business aspects.

I wonder if the same concept could not also work with metal tools.

1. As with all businesses, you have to determine your costs ahead of time so you can make a reasonable profit without overcharging. You don't want to overcharge because that drives away customers. So, if you have machines and you are leasing them out or letting people rent them, you include in the price an amount for eventual replacement of the tool. In addition, you take depreciation on the tool when figuring your taxes.

2. You get some decent insurance for not only negligence liability, but also for major tool breakage. And you include those costs in your overall expense chart so you know what to charge to make a decent profit.

3. And finally, you don't let anyone use the tool unless they are competent in using it.

Good luck on your business.

Guess he's never been to NYC......this is a very common practice for woodshops and artists in New York area due to rent costs....

There are ads on Craigslist all the time looking for members all the way up through Westchester.....

It has long been and is still being tried in the auto repair/hot rod industry, with VERY mixed results. Substitution for and outright theft of expensive items, breakage, liability, required management presence and ultimate machine replacement are prime considerations.

Woodworking machines are not nearly as expensive as metalworking machines and neither are the measuring instruments, a major factor in the wear and breakage areas. A piece of spinning steel can do a LOT more damage than a table leg!
Regards, Joe

Metal working equipment and tooling is infinitely more expensive than woodworking equipment. You also need more types of machiens to do the work. The sheer number of different accessories, tooling, and consumables required for metalsmithing is mind blowing to anyone who is not set up to do it. And before you tell me again, yes Kevin Kolosky (a.k.a. 22WRF), i know you have told me you totally understand everything in the tooling and consumable departments that one needs to be a metalsmith, even though you do not know what the distance between centers on a lathe means. Additionally, anyone who wants to be a gunmaker metalsmith has to invest serious money and even uber more serious time to building special jigs and fixtures for gunmaking. General machinists have to do this some, but not nearly so much unless they do specialized tasks.

As a side note, one of the best quotes from the book Turpin wrote on David Miller is when Miller said if he had to start out right now he might not do it due to the shear volume of energy and time he would hhave to expend to make all of the jigs, fixtures, and modified/custom tooling he needs to be a metalsmith.

Everyone who has ever built a bird house thinks he is a "woodworker," and most can in fact do simple projects like they saw on The New Yakee Workshop or want to do a project they saw on The Woodright's Shop. It takes far less skill, training, and just general intellegence to make a box or even an "advanced" project like make an end table. The idea that there are metalsmiths and machinists capable of safely running the machinery in the same manner is not well founded. There are greater opportunities to get hurt, wreck the machine, destroy tooling, hurt soemone next to you, etc., etc. when doing machining than when doing doing woodowrking. As said earlier, if someone is skilled and competant enough to use th machinery, then they likey own or have access to it already

Woodworking and metal working is apples and oranges

As for letting someone using your machinery in trade for gun work for you, no way in hell would I reccomend that to anyone. Well, I would suggest it to Kevin Kolosky (a.k.a. 22WRF) if he owned machinery. But for anyone else? forget it. Use your time and machinery to make more money and then you can pay a professional to do your gunwork.

Thanks everyone.
The responses are a real eye opener.
Based on the wisdom gleened from the above, I will not be pursuing this risky and possibly dangerous concept.

A possible partial solution might be for you yourself to actually do the machine operations according to his wants and under his observation. That way he can get at least an approximation of his needs while he will then owe you favors and consideration on his charges for doing your gun work.

Eventually you will exchange info and expertise with each other and grow either closer or further apart.

Someone telling me that he's a machinist and wants to use my machine is like someone telling me he's a pilot and wants to borrow my airplane (if I still could afford one, grin). I'll need plenty of PROOF!
Regards, Joe

I think that the OTHER downside would be that you would be at risk of:

1) Personal injury claims against YOU if he injured himself on one of your machines

2) Damage and delay claims against YOU if it was "the fault of your machine failing" that caused him to have to write-off the $1000 custom rifle job he was just completing.

Mark

I do know what the distance between centers is.

But that is irrelevant anyway because I wasn't suggesting to the gentleman how to run a lathe. Rather, what I was suggesting is that if he decided to do it, to make sure to take into account all of the costs of doing it. In fact, I said "I wonder if".
You missed the point even though you have claimed on here before that you can read. You missed it because you were getting a hard on thinking that you saw something that you could use to make an ad hominum argument against me.

I also know that you are so full of shit that when you do the stream goes all the way from Sawyer to Cloquet.

There is no need to tell everyone what my name is on this board because everyone already knows that its Kevin Kolosky.

So please, go back outside and play awhile before Mama calls you in for supper and bedtime.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Nisbet:
Thanks everyone.
The responses are a real eye opener.
Based on the wisdom gleened from the above, I will not be pursuing this risky and possibly dangerous concept.

All above posts are right on the money. Not to mention what if there is a deficit between who owes whom what in hours or money.

I did a trade like this for a Milling machine.
The first thing I did was draw up a contractual agreement outlining what was expected by and of both parties. We had no disagreements As everything we desired was agreed to and in writing signed by both of us.

It gives you leverage when an argument does arise. But being who I am I would not let anyone but my best of tool making buddies run my machines. I can't afford the repairs on a crashed machine. Or someone plowing a grove in my mill table.

The other thing is 22WRF mentioned adding in a fee to compensate for repairs down the road on that DIY machine shop. Well as Mark said you can F up a machine tool fast with more damage then anything in a wood shop. If you run the tool into the chuck in a lathe the minimum you have done is broke the tool and scarfed your chuck. If you hit it hard enough you can damage the spindle or the carriage. And that machine is now down until repaired. Not to mention everything that a novice could stick his fingers in and pull back a stump.

MAchine work is an art of knowing how rigid your setup is and how hard you can push that setup. Many times has a part come out of the chuck or flown out of the vise. It's the Knowledgeable and experienced machinist that prevents these type of setups in the first place then if there is no other option takes care when a poor set up must be used. It's why We Machinists and Toolmakers are in short supply NOT EVERYONE CAN DO IT nor should they attempt it. Some talent you are born with and some skills can not be learned

You might trade time-for-time...but you do the machining for him, not him using your equipment.

Just curious, what kind of work are you wanting to have done? If I were an experienced machinist with the kind of equipment you describe I can't imagine too many chores I wouldn't attempt myself...

Bottom line is!! When something is done in YOUR shop by you or someone else it`ll have YOUR name on it~~~ good bad or ????? Your reputation is at stake not his! Also check with your insurance carrier. Betcha he`ll have something interesting to say.
Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
Things like this rarely end well.

Aye.

quote:

Originally posted by Bohica:
When something is done in YOUR shop by you or someone else it`ll have YOUR name on it~~~ good bad or ????? Your reputation is at stake not his!

That really depends on how your product is identified and marketed. It would be just as easy to be a detached owner/financier of a business and stake the reputation all on the work of the gunsmith. Anyhow, I got the impression that the original post was not about starting a commercial venture but about bartering for work on personal firearms. I could be wrong...

I haven't seen this covered yet, but if a person builds a firearm in your location, and you are not licensed to manufacture firearms, the BATFE probably won't care if you didn't know what the person was doing...it was manufactured on your equipment, in your shop, at your address. Consider the possibility that someone might want to try making a suppressor, or converting something to full auto, you know, after watching that informitive show "Sons of Guns"!

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
I haven't seen this covered yet, but if a person builds a firearm in your location, and you are not licensed to manufacture firearms, the BATFE probably won't care if you didn't know what the person was doing...it was manufactured on your equipment, in your shop, at your address. Consider the possibility that someone might want to try making a suppressor, or converting something to full auto, you know, after watching that informitive show "Sons of Guns"!

Interesting. So, it is the facility that is licensed and not the individual gunsmith? I would think that the gunsmith, (or the business entity the gunsmith created and had a business license for) would be the holder of the manufacturing FFL. You are saying that licensing is the responsibility of the landlord if a gunsmith leases shop space?

So Im guessing Marc and 22WRF dont like each other.....

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
I haven't seen this covered yet, but if a person builds a firearm in your location, and you are not licensed to manufacture firearms, the BATFE probably won't care if you didn't know what the person was doing...it was manufactured on your equipment, in your shop, at your address. Consider the possibility that someone might want to try making a suppressor, or converting something to full auto, you know, after watching that informitive show "Sons of Guns"!

Interesting. So, it is the facility that is licensed and not the individual gunsmith? I would think that the gunsmith, (or the business entity the gunsmith created and had a business license for) would be the holder of the manufacturing FFL. You are saying that licensing is the responsibility of the landlord if a gunsmith leases shop space?

If you are an employee of a gun shop then you don't need an FFL. and you certainly do not need an FFL to build a gun for personal use.

But the Smith needs to be licensed if he is doing work in another shop or that shop needs to be licensed as well just for the record keeping end of the deal. Now that said I may have left out some other details that I myself don't know about but thats the gist of it.

What I think Congo was talking about is just that this guy might want to come in and do something minor to majorly illegal

quote:

Originally posted by willardc:
So Im guessing Marc and 22WRF dont like each other.....

I don't dislike anyone. I just didn't like what he had to say. And I don't think much of his gunwork.

Additionally, if he wants everyone to know I'm Kevin Kolosky, thats fine with me. I chose the name 22WRF because my Dad has an old one (Winchester 1890), but I can just as well go by Kevin or Kevin Kolosky. How does one get that changed?

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
What I think Congo was talking about is just that this guy might want to come in and do something minor to majorly illegal

Yeah, I get that, but that's a pretty big leap when the original post stated: "I have been thinking about offering the use of my shop to a qualified gunsmith in exchange for him doing gun work for me."

It is a reasonable caution, but nobody said anything about allowing an unqualified person perform illegal weapon modifications.

I'm still curious what an experienced machine shop owner/operator might consider having a gunsmith without his own tools do...

kcstott:
Thanks for the reply to my post. I guess I didn't quite make myself clear. When you get an FFL, there is an address of where you are doing business. I have worked on and off with FFL's since I was 14.5 years old, sweeping floors, and am now 54. It is rare that the BATFE lets someone work at another location, except in special circumstances.
The major sticking point comes to what is the interpretation of the BATFE agent. (Check out the "removed" serial number post and see what happened there!)
If you have a hard a** agent, who happens to go to that machine shop for whatever reason, and he doesn't like something the gunsmith is doing, he could lock the doors until everything is worked out. He may be wrong, you will win any legal battle, but can you afford to have your doors locked for any length of time?
I do understand that there is no intention of letting anyone but a licensed skilled smith do work in your shop, but government law enforcement has not always been known for their common sense in matters.
The last shop I worked in full time we had a fellow do our bluing for us. He was not licensed with any kind of FFL. He would take the disassembled guns to his shop, polish and blue them and then return them. Our local agent got a bug up his rear and decided that he was performing a "common gunsmithing procedure, for profit, without any type of Federal Firearms License." He was immediately told to stop doing what he was doing or face some severe legal problems. He quite bluing for us.
Again, might have been totally off base as far as if he was doing something illegal, but do you really want to take a chance with what may well be your life's work?
I personally feel it would be a GREAT thing to have in my local area. I do wish you the best of luck if you decide to do it, and I really hope you can make it work, but my dad always told me to think of the worst case scenario at the same time you are looking at how good it could be.

The other guy will start to take your expensive machines for granted.

Most people quickly forget that they are getting a good deal, or that someone has done right by them.

Instead of nurturing the good deal like a fertile garden, they concentrate on "real work", i.e. doing work for third parties that they get paid for.

Something like this can work - with contracts. The hardest part is how do you figure your common "currency", time or "job completion".

It is not necessarily right or wrong, but if the gunsmithing "job" ends up being harder than anticipated for any one of a million reasons, the gunsmith feels "hard done by". If the job does not turn out perfectly, the machine tool owner will feel like he just got stuck in the eye by a needle.

Finally, it is just human nature to obtain whatever at wholesale, but to value what he does at retail.

Go slowly, find someone with a similar nature to yours, define your words and terms exactly, and execute a written contract that is equally fair to both parties. Do not forget to include a six month "walk away, no harm, no foul" clause. That will at least limit your losses.

Congo
I have to agree whole hardily. and about the attitude of the Agent well thats in most cases of law enforcement