Just found out today that if you order any serialized guns/parts and/or actions from Midway you have no choice other than UPS for shipping. The lady I spoke to claimed that it was a BATF regulation (which it isn’t according to the BATF)... but after several phone calls it turned out to be the USPS office in Columbia, Mo. where Midway is located. They refuse to ship firearms of any kind...FFL or no FFL.

I would file a complaint then. I cannot see how one office can refuse to play by the rules independent of all other post offices. I don't think they could keep this up in the face of determined resistance.

Brent

I'd let my fingers do the walking and call a postal inspector.

Preferably one in washington.


Not to actually rectify the situation, but some jackass in MO might just get in hot water for making up their own regulations and that's always worth the effort.

AllanD

Alan,

Screw the Postal Inspector...I just whipped off an email and phone call to his boss! I’m sure the president won’t see it personally, but I’m also including letters to both my Senators and my local Congressman. The two Senators are a waste of time here in California, but my local Congressman is a Republican and a big supporter of gun rights and the free enterprise system.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Alan,

Screw the Postal Inspector...I just whipped off an email and phone call to his boss! I’m sure the president won’t see it personally, but I’m also including letters to both my Senators and my local Congressman. The two Senators are a waste of time here in California, but my local Congressman is a Republican and a big supporter of gun rights and the free enterprise system.

if you send that kind of complaint to the President it only makes YOU look like a "crank"
for which you'll get your very own Secret service file.

If however you send it to the head postal inspector, or HIS boss the Postmaster general
and suggest that this jerk-off in Missouri
is costing them revenue due to his capricious
attitude that are in conflict with exsisting regulations... you get the picture...

AllanD

Rick, frankly I'd never ship USPS with any firearm, ever. UPS has always been my choice and I've never had a hitch with dozens of transactions. The first time I've ever had a firearm shipped to me USPS (two weeks ago) it was stolen... beautiful SS M70 and McMillan stock.

Nope, I'll take the private sector handling my stuff with accurate tracking over a shoddy government organization with, apparently, a fair share of disgruntled thieves working for it...

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

if you send that kind of complaint to the President it only makes YOU look like a "crank"
for which you'll get your very own Secret service file.

AllanD

That's funny. I don't know if it was meant to be, but it still is.

Way to go Rick!

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Just found out today that if you order any serialized guns/parts and/or actions from Midway you have no choice other than UPS for shipping. The lady I spoke to claimed that it was a BATF regulation (which it isn’t according to the BATF)... but after several phone calls it turned out to be the USPS office in Columbia, Mo. where Midway is located. They refuse to ship firearms of any kind...FFL or no FFL.

What does Midway sell that would fall under this catagory anyway?

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Just found out today that if you order any serialized guns/parts and/or actions from Midway you have no choice other than UPS for shipping. The lady I spoke to claimed that it was a BATF regulation (which it isn’t according to the BATF)... but after several phone calls it turned out to be the USPS office in Columbia, Mo. where Midway is located. They refuse to ship firearms of any kind...FFL or no FFL.

What does Midway sell that would fall under this catagory anyway?

Terry

Midway took over the contract that Brownells used to have with Remington and they sell the 700 actions. Also falling under this category are any pistol frames and slides and also ammunition.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
Rick, frankly I'd never ship USPS with any firearm, ever. UPS has always been my choice and I've never had a hitch with dozens of transactions. The first time I've ever had a firearm shipped to me USPS (two weeks ago) it was stolen... beautiful SS M70 and McMillan stock.

Nope, I'll take the private sector handling my stuff with accurate tracking over a shoddy government organization with, apparently, a fair share of disgruntled thieves working for it...

I normally wouldn’t give a damn except that on my FFL I have my premises address and my billing and mailing address (they are not the same) and UPS recently started requiring that all firearms shipments go only to the premises address on the FFL. That means I have to be sure to be home when the UPS guy shows up. This is not a BATF requirement as I have already spoken to their legal department in Washington and they have no problem with a licensee having a separate mailing address as long as the “business†itself only operates at the one designated address on the license.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Alan,

if you send that kind of complaint to the President it only makes YOU look like a "crank"
for which you'll get your very own Secret service file.

If however you send it to the head postal inspector, or HIS boss the Postmaster general
and suggest that this jerk-off in Missouri
is costing them revenue due to his capricious
attitude that are in conflict with exsisting regulations... you get the picture...

AllanD

Alan, if that’s the case then they will have to add this into my already large Secret Service file! I have sent numerous letters to the White House in the past and have always gotten a response and some action. Hasn’t always solved my problem/complaint 100% but they were more than happy to assist.

The US Postal service is part of the executive branch of the government and my philosophy has always been you go right to the top if you want something to get done. These other people are “clerks†who are scared to death to make a decision or a committal statement of any kind on anything.

I’m sorry, but to me two federally licensed businesses trying to do business with each other in interstate commerce should not be hindered by a branch of the government that is refusing to accept shipments of legal merchandise because some “clerk†in Columbia, Mo. doesn’t like guns.

Brad, theft occurs with UPS also. At least USPS will pay claims on firearms. UPS will fight you tooth and nail even when it is obvious the damage was their responsiblilty.

I only will ship USPS Registered Mail. It is very secure. Every person that touches the package has to sign off on it.

Last year I sent dago red a 1903 bolt so he could practice jeweling. I made the mistake of sending it UPS (insured for $50.00) and they delivered the package to him the next day just fine...but it had been ripped open and was empty! UPS actually paid me, but only because the owner of the UPS store where I have my mailbox is a close friend and she gave them hell for me and got my money.

The same outfit [ Midway] will not send reloading supplies to Mass. not even empty brass. They say they are following the instructions they got in a letter from the state A.G.
Customstox, if all have to sign off on packages, they should be able to tell me where my last Lilja barrel is.

I always ship USPS...declare it as a firearm no problem...

Call W...get him on the case

Rick,

A letter to the President probably won't get through the filter. The Postal Inspectors can't do anything either as this is an operations problem and not fraud or criminal in the literal sense.

You need to find out who the district manager and area vice president are for the for the Columbia, MO USPS. Letters to them will be much more productive. If a letter would also come from Mr. Potterfield as well explaining the revenue loss as the USPS is realizing from the idiot making the seat of the pants policy I'm sure they would listen.

The above is not my conjecture but from the horses mouth... my dad, whom is in upper level operations management with the USPS.

And Chic is spot on regarding registered mail. Its the only way I will ship a long gun.

DavidReed,

With all due respect to you (and please afford me the same), I’m old enough and have been around long enough to know that the President of the United States isn’t going to read my email.

I’ve been writing letters to government agencies and my elected representatives since I was old enough to vote, and I’ll be 60 in July. I’ve also been a small businessman and independent contractor for allot of years and I know how to compose a business letter in a polite and respectful manner.

One of the things I have learned about our government over the years is that a letter being forwarded from above carries allot more weight, and gets far more attention, than one being forwarded from below.

The perfect example I always site for people concerns Senator Bob Dole and some assistance he gave me almost 40 years ago. I was having a problem with the VA concerning my service connected disability and was getting absolutely nowhere going through the normal channels. I finally contacted Senator Dole (a fellow disabled combat veteran) and one week later got a personal letter from him offering his assitance(with a CC to the VA) and I have had no trouble with the VA since.

Again, with respect, I didn’t post this to get advice on how to handle it...I posted it to alert others to the situation.

Rick,

Nothing but respect givin or taken . I just wanted to offer what insight I had. My President comment was meant to be tongue in cheek, but alas the internet doesn't give nuance all to well.

My latest UPS nightmare goes like this. Just sent a rifle back to it's owner in Florida. The weight of the package was 11 lbs. Because it wasn't encased in cardboard, they charged my credit card an additional $6.00. The gun was delivered on March 28th. On April 1st, I received an email message from UPS saying that they charged my credit card an additional $78.90. I called them this morning and they told me that they re-checked the weight of the package and amazingly it went from 11 lbs, to a wopping 113.0 lbs. I told them they were "off their fucking rockers"! That I had shipped a rifle, not an artillery piece. They refunded the $78.90 this afternoon. One thing UPS has managed to do lately, and that is to getting me thinking about going postal, on them. What a bunch of incompetent morons...

How about Fed EX ?.
I,m sure they screw things up too but over all I think they do a good job...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Brad, theft occurs with UPS also. At least USPS will pay claims on firearms. UPS will fight you tooth and nail even when it is obvious the damage was their responsiblilty.

I only will ship USPS Registered Mail. It is very secure. Every person that touches the package has to sign off on it.

Chick I believe the gent that shipped to my FFL Holder had it registerd... it had a tracking number, etc., but I'll double check the "registered" part. The package started out as 10 lbs shipped to a MT zip code and ended up as 1.5 lbs with a Vashon, WA zip code where it was delivered... obvioulsy someone switched labels with another package and stole the firearm.

I believe you about the easier reimbursement with USPS, just that I've never had a problem with UPS so haven't had to find out.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
How about Fed EX ?.
I,m sure they screw things up too but over all I think they do a good job...tj3006

I've read post lamblasting them as well.....

I just use UPS as it works so far.....

It seems as though the USPS will be my next try however.

Like I said, the only problem I have with the UPS thing is that they will not deliver to the mailing address on my FFL (which is a damn UPS store)...only to the premises address. Both Fed Ex and the USPS will deliver to the mailing address.

If I don’t happen to be home on the day of delivery I feel much more comfortable knowing that the firearm is safe and behind lock and key at my mail box place (where I know everyone that works there) than I would having it sit at the UPS center in friggin Pacoima. You might remember Pacoima as the town where Rodney King tried to break a bunch of cops nightsticks with his head! The UPS center is about four blocks from where that happened.

I'm a Manager with the USPS, and if anyone needs assistance in getting regulations - I can help. This is right out of the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM). Mailing rifles and shotguns via USPS is permissible subject to the following:

11.0 Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
11.1 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Firearms
11.1.1 Definitions
The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:

a. Handgun means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm or device the mailing of which is regulated by this standard.

b. Pistol or revolver means a handgun styled to be fired by the use of a single hand and to fire or otherwise expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

c. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.

d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.

e. Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.

f. Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), 18 USC 921, et seq.

g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:

1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.

2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

11.1.2 Handguns
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 11.1.3 and 11.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 11.1.4 and 11.1.6.

11.1.3 Authorized Persons
Subject to 11.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties:

a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.

b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.

c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.

e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.

f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.

g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 11.1.3c. through 11.1.3e.

11.1.4 Affidavit of Addressee
Any person proposing to mail a handgun under 11.1.3 must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee setting forth that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm under a particular category of 11.1.3a. through 11.1.3g, and that the firearm is intended for the addressee's official use. The affidavit must also bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official duty use of the addressee, signed by one of the following, as appropriate:

a. For officers of Armed Forces, by the commanding officer.

b. For officers and employees of enforcement agencies, by the head of the agency employing the addressee to perform the official duty with which the firearm is to be used.

c. For watchmen, by the chief clerk of the department, bureau, or independent branch of the government of the United States, the state, the territory, or the district by which the watchman is employed.

d. For the purchasing agent or other designated member of enforcement agencies, by the head of such agency, that the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee included in 11.1.3c. through 11.1.3e, Authorized Persons.

11.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers
Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

11.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers
A licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 11.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major component parts thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms.

11.1.7 FBI Crime Detection Bureaus
Handguns may be mailed without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6 if:

a. Addressed to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), or its director, or to the scientific laboratory or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers or officers of a state, territory, or district authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment; or

b. Offered by an authorized agent of the federal government as an official shipment to any qualified addressee in categories 11.1.3a. through 11.1.3g, or to a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms or to a federal agency.



11.2 Antique Firearms
Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.

11.3 Rifles and Shotguns
Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e.

11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Brad, theft occurs with UPS also. At least USPS will pay claims on firearms. UPS will fight you tooth and nail even when it is obvious the damage was their responsiblilty.

I only will ship USPS Registered Mail. It is very secure. Every person that touches the package has to sign off on it.

USPS will NEVER simply leave the package on your porch like UPS or FedEx will.

I've had several items left on the porch, my NEIGHBOR's porch!!!

One such item was the frame of a pistol that had been sent out to be plated.

AllanD

Firearms are supposed to be shipped with an “adult signature required†provision.

The whole thing to me is just a bit silly when you are talking about shipments between two federally licensed individuals in the conduct of their day to day business activities that are already governed and regulated by federal,state, and local laws and licensing requirements.

Midway is a joke for wanting to please there customers. They are one of a few companies who flat refuse to ship bullets to me using the USPS flat rate boxes. I wouldnt buy a damn thing off them.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Midway is a joke for wanting to please there customers. They are one of a few companies who flat refuse to ship bullets to me using the USPS flat rate boxes. I wouldnt buy a damn thing off them.

I never used them before either, but unfortunately they are now about the only game in town if you want new-in-the-box 700 actions.

quote:

I'm a Manager with the USPS

Jeff, when I met you in San Diego, you told me you were a product inspection manager in the titty bar Industry. I have been convinced ever since you told me that somehow our lives had crossed and you had my dream job.

AllanD,
I can go one better with USPS. I get calls often. "Chic, it looks like we have another gun here for you. Do you want to come and pick it up or will you be home?" You gotta love small post offices.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
The above is not my conjecture but from the horses mouth... my dad, whom is in upper level operations management with the USPS.

So, is your dad able to look into this situation and at least determine who the people to contact are, if not actually able to direct policy at the USPO in question?

Jeff,

Thanks - very good info.

Jaywalker

quote:

USPS will NEVER simply leave the package on your porch like UPS or FedEx will.

The hell they won't!! I had a new 700, insured, requiring a signature that was simply left on my FFL's porch. Rick, write your congressman for sure because your issue will certainly filter down to that local asshats at your PO. FWIW.

quote:

Originally posted by joecool:

quote:

USPS will NEVER simply leave the package on your porch like UPS or FedEx will.

The hell they won't!! I had a new 700, insured, requiring a signature that was simply left on my FFL's porch. Rick, write your congressman for sure because your issue will certainly filter down to that local asshats at your PO. FWIW.

I hope it does...but it ain’t my PO it is the one in Columbia, Mo. that Midway uses.

I’m starting to get some answers back, and so far it is coming down to Midway being the culprits in this fiasco.

I’m still waiting for an official answer from UPS on their policies on shipping firearms, but I have heard back from both the BATF and USPS it it ain’t either of them putting the monkey wrench in the works.