Zero-Drift and Ray338: I just ran across this post in reading through the archives and wondered if you could give me more information on the conditions under which the Outers FoulOut would damage rifle bores. I have a Mauser 98/22 in which the barrel didn't look that bad when I first started out cleaning it for the first time. It had some kind of grease in the barrel when I got it and didn't look too bad upon first inspection after patching out the grease. I used CLP and patches and they started out black which eventually turned to gray after umpteen patches. I would then run a brass bristle brush through the bore with CLP and the next patches would come out black again. I went through 8-10 brushes this way without much improvement. Then I decided to build a 50 cent bore cleaner as described in the Parallax Forums (evidently just a homemade version of the Outers product. I used a weak solution of household ammonia and vinegar for the electrolyte.). I got a lot of black on the rod and in the mixture. I then went back to cleaning with a brush and CLP. I went through this procedure about three times and the middle section of the barrel was so rough that it would tear patches. At this point I figured that the barrel was lost anyway, so I left the electric bore cleaner on for several hours, periodically cleaning off the electrode and replacing the electrolyte. Eventually I got the bore to actually shine a little bit. The rifling is still there, but the edges look rough. Looking at the crown with a small magnifying glass, I can see what might be referred to as a "frosted" appearance. I have not slugged the bore, but a bullet will go a little farther into the muzzle than on one of my new (military arsenal refurbs) barrels, but not by a lot. I will probable fire the gun with a long string a few times and inspect the cases, but am curious as to whether the 50 cent bore cleaner actually caused any damage or whether it just uncovered the pitting that was already there. What do you guys think? TIA, Brady

Sounds like you eroded the bore through electrolysis. A little current in an electrolyte will cut most any metal. It takes surprising little voltage and amperage to do it.

Pitting you can feel, but what you are describing goes far beyond pitting or frosting. Even if you get a few bullets down the bore, you may still have a ticking time-bomb on your hands. I would have a competent gunsmith borescope the bore to better understand the nature of the damage. A quick re-barreling job will solve the problem.

In any event, in the future you should use something like Sweets or Montana X-Treme to clean heavily fouled bores. Leave electrolysis alone.

Zero-Drift and Ray338: I just ran across this post in reading through the archives and wondered if you could give me more information on the conditions under which the Outers FoulOut would damage rifle bores. I have a Mauser 98/22 in which the barrel didn't look that bad when I first started out cleaning it for the first time. It had some kind of grease in the barrel when I got it and didn't look too bad upon first inspection after patching out the grease. I used CLP and patches and they started out black which eventually turned to gray after umpteen patches. I would then run a brass bristle brush through the bore with CLP and the next patches would come out black again. I went through 8-10 brushes this way without much improvement.

Then I decided to build a 50 cent bore cleaner as described in the Parallax Forums (evidently just a homemade version of the Outers product). I used a weak solution of household ammonia and vinegar for the electrolyte. I used a 6 volt battery charger for the power source and a bare welding rod for the electrode. I connected the negative terminal to the rod, insulated the rod with short sections of electrical shrink wrap and inserted it into the bore. I plugged the chamber with a piece of wooden dowel rod, so that the metal rod was resting on the end of the dowel rod. I had the positive terminal connected to the barrel. I put a short piece of clear plastic tubing over the end of the barrel and put a small funnel onto the end of that. The electrolyte started foaming right away. At first, the electrolyte was a rusty color, but soon changed to black. I kept removing the black foam with paper towels and replenishing the electrolyte as it boiled off. The deposit on the electrode rod was gray/black; I also cleaned it off periodically). I got a lot of black on the rod and in the mixture. I then went back to cleaning with a brush and CLP. I went through this procedure about three times and the middle section of the barrel was so rough that it would tear patches. At this point I figured that the barrel was lost anyway, so I left the electric bore cleaner on for several hours, periodically cleaning off the electrode and replacing the electrolyte. I quit only when there did not seem to be any more activity, i.e. foaming and changing color of the electrolyte.

Eventually I got the bore to actually shine a little bit. The rifling is still there, but the edges look rough. Looking at the crown with a small magnifying glass, I can see what might be referred to as a "frosted" appearance. I have not slugged the bore, but a bullet will go a little farther into the muzzle than on one of my new (military arsenal refurbs) barrels, but not by a lot. I will probable fire the gun with a long string a few times and inspect the cases, but am curious as to whether the 50 cent bore cleaner actually caused any damage or whether it just uncovered the pitting that was already there. What do you guys think? TIA, Brady

I had one and gave it away. They work but very, very slowly (at least for me) and I'm much happier with a variety of other cleaners...mostly FoulOut.

Foul-Outs work well, but as the instructions and Zero-Drift have pointed out, they must be used properly. The problem is caused by the Foul-Out system uncovering rust in the bore by removing some copper or lead fouling that coated over the rust. This newly exposed rust reacts with the electrolytic solutions used to remove the lead or copper, and causes it to start removing iron from the bore. So as the instructions say, you need to check the solution every 10 minutes, and if it has started to change to an orange color it has been contaminated by rust and you have to dump it, clean the bore with Hoppes #9 etc to remove more copper/lead fouled over powder fouling & rust, flush the bore clean of the Hoppes and restart the Foul-Out with new fresh solution. This is normally only a problem the first time you clean a used rifle with the Foul-Out system as it will remove all copper/lead fouling from the bore leaving it totally clean. Then a good oiling will prevent any more rust from forming in the bore til the rifle is fired and cleaned again. Truthfully its a lot of work to use a Foul-Out system everytime you clean your guns, so I really only use mine when I get buy a used rifle with a heavily fouled bore and need to get the bore clean that first time - but this is also the most dangerous time to use a Foul-Out system.

Very interesting! Thanks for the replies. I had read several posts in military collector forums and was under the impression that rust would be removed without any damage to the steel of the barrel. Some people had even mentioned this technique for removing rust from old tools. Do you (all ) have any explanation as to why the presence of rust would cause the electrolysis to attack the steel? Also why the middle of the bore would be damaged more than the ends? (That is where my barrel seemed to be the worst). I am not disputing what anyone has said here; I am just trying to get as detailed information as possible. If anyone could provide any more details, I would feel obligated to provide it to the people on the other forums. Thanks, Brady

I don't think it is attacking the steel. It is removing the rust and copper. Sometimes what lies beneath is nasty looking. It may not be such a bad idea to leave the copper in such barrles. If it is a nasty pitted militaty barrel the copper can be a sort of paving over the potholes. If you take off the paving the hole reappears.

Yes you can use the same process on rusty steel objects. Use washing soda and a 12V storage battery. Put a piece of sacaraficial sheet metal in the bottom of a plastic bucket or tub. Connect your battery to it and suspend the part on wire above. Connect the other lead to it. It will remove all rust quickly without mesing up the base metal. It is much better than chemical rust removers.

Once there is enough iron in the solution it WILL pit the bore. It doesn't strip an even layer, it bores like a worm. I know this for a fact. Don't ask why, just trust me; I know whereof I speak!

Triggertate: I have to ask why; I'm an engineer!
I couldn't find any instructions from Outers online. Would anyone be so good as to provide the pertinent sections here? ( I just lost my email, so can't use that). Thanks, Brady

I don't have a scanner here at home but the pertanent issue is to check the rod after 15-30 minutes and see if copper is building up. It can be anything from a light discoloring to an obvious layer of copper very flat; not shiney in appearance. I always pour out the solution and check its color at this first inspection. Any rust in the barrel will give it an orange tint right away. If the rust is towards the throat (as if from corrosive primers) the first solution that runs from the barrel will be nice and blue and the last few inches will be orange. Watch closely and you can get a feel for where the rust formed. If it is all an even orange tint, the entire bore had a coat of rust. Clean the bore with a good brush and bore cleaner again and push through some patches soaked with rubbing alcohol to degrease the bore (rubbing alcohol leaves no residues that block the molecular transfer). Most of this isn't in the manual; just the basics. Always sand the rod with clean dry paper to expose unoxidized steel just before inserting in the barrel each time. Even stainless will oxidize enough to mess with the process if you wait too long after sanding. Mine has three lights; Cleaning, Clean and Overload. Clean can also mean oil in the bore or on the rod. Overload usually means the rod is touching the barrel steel somewhere. If you don't check for rust, "Cleaning" may actually mean "Boring Holes in Your Barrel" . The red electrode goes on the gun metal, the black on the rod. I assume screwing that up is bad medicine! Outers will not remove powder fouling. Sometimes a really dirty barrel will require alternating uses of the FoulOut and conventional bore cleaning to expose succsessive layers of copper. Anything else?

To be honest with you, I am going to try Wipe Out and hope like hell I can retire the Outers. It works but it is labor intensive in it's own way.

triggertate:

Thanks for the reply: I got the orange color in the electrolyte only at the very first and I changed the solution after just a few minutes. After that the electrolyte was just black. If this wasn't powder fouling, what was it? I never did see even a trace of blue while using the electric bore cleaner, however I had cleaned it quite a bit already with CLP and bronze brushes and patches.

I have heard enough negative comments about this method to make me a little "juberous" (as my mother says) about using it. I just wish I knew exactly what was going on!

Thanks again to everyone who replied. If you have any more information, I would be glad to hear it. Brady

Not being there to see what's going on I can only guess but black sounds bad . The Cop Out solution won't remove powder fouling and I am confused as to you not seeing any blue as it is the original color of the copper solution. Be sure you're not using the Lead Out solution.

Rust turns black if left in a watery solution long enough. Did you scrub the bore after dumping the orange solution?

triggertate: I do not have the Outers kit; I made my own according to instructions I found on the internet. My solution was a mixture of household ammonia and vinegar; I don't know if that has anything to do with the black color, but the vast majority of the time the solution was black. I did periodically scrub the bore again with CLP and a bronze brush to check on the progress. After several cycles of using the electric bore cleaner, replacing the electrolyte, and scrubbing, the activity (foaming, the electrolyte turning black) pretty much stopped. That is when the bore seemed very rough in the middle section, not so bad on the ends. I then scrubbed more with bronze brushes and even used 0000 steel wool on a wornout brush. Eventually I was able to get the middle section to shine a little. The bore looks about the same now from end to end. The rifling is continuous throughout the bore, but the edges of the lands and the bottoms of the grooves are rough, but they no longer tear patches. I don't think that it is dangerous to shoot now, but I will fire it a few times with a long string. Thanks, Brady

Sorry 'bout that; I forgot the part where you were using home-made solution. Can't be of much use to you on that.