I have a custom pre-64 Model 70 my wife gave me that is very accurate. In fact I just developed some loads using 210 Nosler Partitions @ 2875 fps that group into 1" which is about standard for this rifle. However, barrel cleaning is a chore! I've used Wipeout (and even that takes three overnight applications), Sweets, Shooter's Choice, etc. Even if I get the barrel down to bare metal and just fire as little as 6 shots, it takes the procedure stated above to get it clean.
My Weatherbys on the other hand onl require one pass with Wipeout and they are squaky clean. I know pre-64s, due to the way the rifling was cut are hard to clean, but this is amazing and even more so, is that if I don't clean it, accuracy is not affected. Is there anything I can do to the barrel to alleviate this malady? jorge

Jorge, I would leave it alone and put up with it. The only other thing I could even suggest and I have heard pros and cons about it is a Outers Foul Out tool .. I use one on most of my guns once a year and it really removes all the copper fouling. SOme people however have different ideas about these .

I've got the same thing goin' on with a new Rem 700 in 204. Worst fouling barrel I've ever run accross and that includes Adams & Bennets, Shaws, and neglected military pieces. 25 rounds and it takes two applications of Wipeout. And I'm not talking slight fouling, the crap comin' outa there looks like blue ballpoint pen ink. There's been a couple hundred rounds down the bore so I'm not holding out for any great improvement. Is the 204 Ruger more prone to fouling than other small calibers?

quote:

but this is amazing and even more so, is that if I don't clean it, accuracy is not affected

I think you answered your own question.

Jorge,
I have the same thing going on with a 30-06 pre 64 Win....hard to clean... It takes more passes with a patch than a stainless Win. that I have that cleans up very quick. I've yet to do it but I was going to have my gunsmith look at it with a bore scope. At least your getting 1" groups, and with a .338 to boot.. I haven't shot mine alot but it's been a very "picky" rifle to reload for.
Terry

Ya know............I never owned a rifle that didnt copper foul. I wouldnt know what to do with one that didnt! I just use sweets and live with it.

Jorge:
I have the same exact problem with two of my 70's. The inside of the barrel just feels somewhat different when you run a brush through them and are a royal pain to clean. For these I have taken a Dewey rod and cut off the handle so it fits into my electric drill. I use JB with a couple drops of Kroil. Put the drill on low speed and clean. Then bore cleaner on a bronze brush. These barrels will always be a pain to clean. This method is very quick and is stress free. I know you don't want to get a different barrel because it was a gift.

As you have probably figured out, anything you
do to improve the "cleanability" of this barrel will involve physically changing the bore somehow. When you do that you run the risk of losing your accuracy (or it may get better....).

Since you're hopefully not planning to use this rifle eradicating prarie dogs, I'd probably let sleeping dogs lie. What I'd do though would be to keep shooting it until accuracy started falling off, and take note of how many rounds that was. So when you do hunt with it you have an idea, or else just plan to shoot the smaller stuff first

Yep, Just clean it after every shooting. Not to clean out all the copper, but to manage it. Are you sure there isn't any pitting or frosting in the barrel? You know, like it got put up wet or something. If it does, it's just the way it's gonna be.

Terry

quote:

For these I have taken a Dewey rod and cut off the handle so it fits into my electric drill. I use JB with a couple drops of Kroil.

Never ever do that!! It is not a shotgun. You can't spin a brush in a rifled bore and do anything good. Only foreward and backward please.

We had a good customer come into the shop with a nearly new rifle that would not shoot. It had shot well at first them not. We confirmed it did not shoot. Finally he fessed up to the electric drill routine. The barrel was ruined.

Scota 4570:
My last reply in response to your post apparently did not make it. A patch with JB bore cleaner or JB Bore bright further wetted with Kroil spun with the drill will polish and in no way harm your bore. Further, if you feel the bronze brushes we use to clean our bores scratch the bores then don't put them in dry, or better yet if you are that paranoid then use a "nylon" brush. As Jorge stated these are not custom guns. His frustration lies in the fact that they are a pain in the ass to clean. And if his is anything like the two difficult ones I own Jorge is taking two or three cleaning sessions to get them clean. If this method were harmful in any way I wouldn't suggest it--not even to Jorge.

Its probably got a surface rusted bore with mini pits and pores thats holding fouling and wont just wipe out clean.

looks clean and shiney but tiny rust pores are holding black residue .

I think what everyone here is saying is let the copper jackets fill the pits.
I have an old 721 that I hate to look down the bore as It never really comes clean.

But it shoots like hell if I dont over clean it

boy this all sounds very familiar, glad to know that I am not the only one.

My 1957 vintage FWT in 30-06 fouls pretty much just like you say. Six shots and several of the lands appear to be loaded up with copper, but that is just where accuracy start to stabilize after a thorough cleaning. Like you all, it takes a minimum of 2 wipe out treatments to get all of the copper out. I've done the JB thing too, and it seems to have helped some, but not tremendously. It is very consistent in that it takes 5-6 shots to settle down after a complete de-coppering. In mine however, accuracy goes down measurably after approx 25 shots, which is the real bummer. So, you have to start all over again. It is really not fun to have a 20-shot "accuracy window", and I have given very hard thought to rebarreling this thing, but for now I haven't been able to get over how much this would depreciate the gun

just rambling......

Bob

I have a savage that is a total pain to clean down to bare metal, but I seldom do it because it's the most accurate rifle I own. I just run some kind of ammonia based cleaner through it a couple of times, then soak in with hoppes #9 overnight and call it good enough.

Jorge, I have helped a lot of acquaintences fire lap their barrels, and in every case it minimized the cleanup needed in these rifles. I know it is a little contoversial, but I have never had a negative result from firelapping, and I have either firelapped or help firelap over 50 rifles at this point. I have exclusively used the Tubb Final Finish system, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on any gun that I owned.

Good Luck--Don

I would just pass a bore snoke down the barrel 2 shots with a good copper solvent and 3 with a good oil. After a shoot and mabye once a year i would clean hell out of it 1...tj3006...tj3006

Jorge,

I have the same issue with my pre-64 30-06. I just run a couple patches of Shooter's Choice and one of Kroil through it after shooting and give it a good scrub once a year. I think it's easy to get too anal about cleaning every last speck of fouling. The proof is in your targets. If your accuracy is good don't worry about it.

Jeff

Jeff, couldn't agree more. The cleaning ritual is far overrated IMO. My 30-06 shoots best "dirty" so I leave it that way. Every barrel will tell you what it needs and they're all slightly different.

Fish is right. If this is an issue you want to "fix" firelap.

I have a couple that foul quickly but shoot better dirty too. I have accepted it an really only scrub them when they'll be put up for a long period.

Right or wrong thats the truth. Nate

Some don't even clean a barrel at all but just put tape over it again. Either it shoots or it does not and yours shoots. So just keep doing what your doing.

To get it cleaner fast use some Rem Clean after the chemical drill.

Shine a pen light into the end of a barrel to look for fouling. Now that information will really get you going!

Jorge:
What do you think about the fire lap? I think there are countless people out here in exactly the same boat but hesitate to try this possible fix. We have all heard the hipe--but does it really work. Your a high roller-you brave enough to give it a try and report back to us the results?

Thanks for all the responses. The barrel looks fine to the naked eye, but I'm going to get it borescoped just to see. Since it's a product of the old Winchester Custom Shop ( I think), I'll just leave it alone. AS to me being a "high roller," not hardly. There aren't many millionaires on active duty that I know of. jorge

Keep us posted. I would be most interested in tracking some of these trouble makers.
One quick question. Did you totally clean this particular gun before you shot it for the first time?

Jorge,

When a barrel fouls that bad there is always going to be a fine line between fixing the problem and ruining the barrel. And chances are that on one that rough, by the time you get it smooth you will have removed more metal than you want to.

I would suggest just using a little JB's, continue to shoot it plenty and accept the results whatever they turn out to be. As long as you dont wear it out it should only get better with continued use.

I have such a gun in a 06 and everytime I clean it it takes 100 or so rounds to reach its accuracy potential of under a half inch...I just don't clean it...I have had that gun for 30 years....

Shoot your gun until it quits shooting an inch then give it a quick 30 minute dose of Wipe Out and some clean patches and a dose of WD-40...Dry out the WD-40 before you go shoot...keep like simple and let the little stuff go....

I now clean my guns once a year at the end of hunting season, oil them and put them up until the next hunting season...I have had way less problems since I started doing this...I do run a few dry patches, maybe one wet one in them after a day at the range..

Ray:
That is sure some barrel you've got yourself there. I would give anything to have such a barrel. I average between 2500 to 3000 rounds a year and would love to hold optimum accuracy potential and then only have to clean once a year. Perhaps it is the clean and unpolluted environment out there in Idaho.

quote:

I average between 2500 to 3000 rounds a year and would love to hold optimum accuracy potential and then only have to clean once a year. Perhaps it is the clean and unpolluted environment out there in Idaho

If you shoot that much you could not get away with it regardless of where you live.


I treat my rifles the same perhaps after 100 rounds or so maybe A through cleaning IF the 1" goroups start to enlarge.

Not talking a Wimbeldon rifle here.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I have a custom pre-64 Model 70 my wife gave me that is very accurate. In fact I just developed some loads using 210 Nosler Partitions @ 2875 fps that group into 1" which is about standard for this rifle. However, barrel cleaning is a chore! I've used Wipeout (and even that takes three overnight applications), Sweets, Shooter's Choice, etc. Even if I get the barrel down to bare metal and just fire as little as 6 shots, it takes the procedure stated above to get it clean.
My Weatherbys on the other hand onl require one pass with Wipeout and they are squaky clean. I know pre-64s, due to the way the rifling was cut are hard to clean, but this is amazing and even more so, is that if I don't clean it, accuracy is not affected. Is there anything I can do to the barrel to alleviate this malady? jorge

No matter what cleaning methods/supplies I've tried over the years, I've NEVER been able to remove all that visible copper color from the bores of my rifles! You can still see some if you look from the correct angle with the right lighting. I've given up trying. As long as the guns shoot well and there's no rust or corrosion going on inside, I'm happy.....

Jorge, you could have a barrelsmith lap the barrel that may improve the fouling characteristics... how it affects accuracy you won't know until you shoot it.

Oneholer, I mean no disrespect but I completely disagree with your recommendation.
If you are using JB paste with anything other than a properly dimensioned lapping slug and the knowledge of what you're doing, you will degrade it's acuracy and most likely eventually ruin your barrel. Using JB paste with a patch will do nothing other than round the edges of whatever sharp rifling exits in the barrel.

It was explained to me by a barrelsmith that barrel lapping should be done before a barrel is cut to final length. The reason for this is the lapping compound wear is doubled in the area of the change of direction of the stroke. Once the lapping is completed, the barrel is then cut, crowned, and chambered.

A drill is fine to remove plastic build-up in a shotgun barrel but it doesn't ever belong in a rifle barrel.

As far as nylon brushes are concerned, I can't recommend their use. Look how nylon fishing line wears a groove in the chrome stripping guides of your fishing rod. Brass (or bronze if you prefer) is the only brushes I use.

A particular Douglas Premium barrrel on M-70 was a huge PIA to clean. A copper mine. I was ready to rebarrel but after numerous JB application on a patch, problem disappeared--now behaves well.

I broke it in, too BTW.

If it was a vintage barrel it would be another story though.

Brianbo:
No disrespect taken. Why does everyone seem to think you have to apologize if you have an opinion that differs for someone else? I don't believe I ever mentioned anything about lapping in this particular method. Lapping and polishing are two totally different animals. This is a method reserved to those pain in the ass bores that are very difficult to clean. I shoot a lot and over the years I finally just said screw it there has to be a better way of cleaning this particular type of rifle instead of taking several days to get the job done. By using the drill "on low speed" I am doing the same amount of cleaning in a short period of time versus three days. Would I do this to my bench guns--no.
Nylon--If I were fishing with bronze fishing line are you saying I wouldn't get grooving also? I was out brush hogging and I lost a blade. Seems I picked up a piece of cotton string and it cut my shaft in two. I wash my hands with soap which is one of the most abbrasive substances around many times a day and my hands haven't fallen off yet.
What this method seems to do is speed up the mechanical action--its a time saver.