In 1947 I got my first centerfire rifle of my very own. Two years later (1949) this ad for gunsmithing work by Wisler Western Arms, Inc. of San Francisco ran on page 47 of the American Rifleman:

"A fine sporting rifle from an issue Enfield. (They meant a P-17) We will mill the receiver with a flat top, radius to sides. Plug screw hole. Forge trigger-guard straight. Shorten and re-shape trigger. (Reduce to) 5 shot magazine. Cut and crown barrel to (your) length. Strike and polish barrel. Remove proof marks on barrel and left side of receiver. Completely reblue. $27.50"

Wisler was not one of the less expensive places around at the time. 15 years later I was still selling brand new Model 70 Winchesters for $50 less than Wisler wanted for theirs in 1949.

Anyway, to put this ad in perspective, that $27.50 which they charged was exactly $0.50 cents less than I earned for a week of work as a "frame-man" for Pacific Bell Telephone in my second full-time job.

It's good to look back. I enjoy remembering the way things were.

However, I consider the "Good Old Days" as now!

According to the Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor statistics inflation calculator, that $27.50 in 1949 has the same buying power as $235.14 in 2007.

What portion of that work do you think you could get done today for $235.14?

quote:

Originally posted by James C Scott:
According to the Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor statistics inflation calculator, that $27.50 in 1949 has the same buying power as $235.14 in 2007.

What portion of that work do you think you could get done today for $235.14?

Certainly not much. But then, I also think the Dept. of Labour is nuts er, misled, when it comes to its multiplier. How many telephone company technical employees does it think are working for $280 a week these days? I also bought a brand new Ford pickup in 1959 for $1,890.00 cash. Does anybody think I could buy one for $18,900 now? If so, where, please?

quote:

I also bought a brand new Ford pickup in 1959 for $1,890.00 cash. Does anybody think I could buy one for $18,900 now? If so, where, please?

You've touched on the simple fact of people willing to spend beyond their means and the economy when credit is issued in abundance.

The Ford Motor Company could build with profit a pickup for $18,000.00 or even less, but the consumer quickly proved that they are more than willing to pay 2 1/2 times that, so there's the rub.
With that working in the a catch 22 upon the american auto worker; he or she can now purchase said automobile, but only on credit. In order to pay for all these items that are on credit, such as trucks, houses, atvs, boats, etc., he or she requires more money.....More money from their employer, who now must raise the price of the vehicle to offset the rising cost of labor......Labor being the most expensive item in the equation of business.

A small guy can still make a living selling a product for a fair price, but only if he understands the principles of living within his means. How many folks do you know of that know how to do that??

Automobiles fall into a slippery slope category of irresponsible pricing. Why was a brand new Toyota 4x4 pickup less than $14,000.00 in 1993, with all the options and a V-6 engine, when in 1999 they were nearly $30,000.00? That's double in 6 years......
I can buy off on the rate of inflation to some extent, but the automobile industry is working us over the coals.

quote:

A small guy can still make a living selling a product for a fair price, but only if he understands the principles of living within his means. How many folks do you know of that know how to do that??

Me,I'm in the black. It's all about spending less than you make.

I bought my (Winchester made) 1917 enfield out of a barrel full of them from Sears Roebuck & Co in Sacramento California in 1965....cost was $10
I wish I'd have bought the entire barrel!

quote:

Originally posted by James C Scott:

quote:

A small guy can still make a living selling a product for a fair price, but only if he understands the principles of living within his means. How many folks do you know of that know how to do that??

Me,I'm in the black. It's all about spending less than you make.

Exactly, it's not so much about high income as it is low overhead Of course, a combination of the 2 works even better...

That is so wild. Dad told me he bought his first enfield from the DCM in 1949 for five dollars. A springfield was fifteen and he couldn't swing that much cash.

Old stories? I got one;

Some time after I got out of the service in 1957 my mother and wife at the time chipped in and bought me a DCM released 03-A3 for $15.00. This was a factory reject. It arrived with the only case that had been fired in it. It had a mint 4 groove barrel and a super beautiful walnut, pistol griped stock.

The reason it was a reject was that someone forgot to put in the ejecter blade. Another nickle took care of that.

Enjoy the revery. Keep it coming. roger

quote:

my mother and wife at the time

Shame on you, Roger! That's really Arkansas of you.

A small guy can still make a living selling a product for a fair price, but only if he understands the principles of living within his means. How many folks do you know of that know how to do that??

[/QUOTE]


Matt-

Well, here's one who spends less than he takes in. (We Oregonians must be more alike than I thought.) I currently refuse to pay off my mortgage because I earn more on my money than I would save by not having a mortgage...and our house payment, if not as low as some, is still less than 12% of my pensions and my wife's pensions (we each have at least 3) combined.

Other than that, my assets are approximately 600 times that of my debt.

Or course, I have learned a few things in 70+ years. Number one is, other than my guns (which aren't a bad investment themselves), there is almost nothing besides food that I need to buy in a hurry in life. I can always wait until I have the disposable cash to buy without inconvenience.

So basically, I don't buy cars anymore, much of our furniture literally came around the horn on a windjammer and has been in our family for generations, I virtually never eat in restaurants, and I don't buy anything except loading components from the big box over-the-internet sellers. I am still using the Browning down jacket I bought 24 years ago(and the 18 kt. gold Rolex GMT I bought 21 years ago). In the coldest of winter, I still wear the same down Parka I wore in Saskatchewan 34 years ago.

Matter of fact, the second most important lesson I learned in life is that in a retail business, the price you sell for is almost totally unimportant. What IS important is what you pay for the stuff you're gonna sell, all related costs included.

So, I try to learn the market I am dealing in, decide what I am willing to pay for any given item, and exercise patience until I can get it for that amount or less, preferably less. Then I can always sell it for the going market price or even a little under and still turn a healthy profit. (Oh yeh, and I always carry the cash to buy things I might want to sell, just in case I see one I can make a deal on.)

To get serious for a little longer....

IF there is any serious point (and that wasn't really the original intent) to my nostalgia post, it is something about modern attitudes and their results.

When that ad was run, people were happy having a rifle which worked well, even if it was a reworked inexpensive war relic. The great majority didn't care if it would qualify as a status symbol. They wanted it to work well at a reasonable cost. And government didn't mind selling the surplus back to the public, because it was the public's money that paid for it in the first place...and government worked FOR the people, the people were NOT its "subjects". It wasn't a question of the government not trusting the people, it was (as it still should be) a question of to what extent we were willing to let the government do things without OUR approval.

Those same folks were content to have a home with 1,000 sq. ft. of living space, and they didn't find it beneath their dignity to learn to re-sole their own shoes (like my dad did for all of us), overhaul their own car engines, make their own sauerkraut and hams and other foodstuffs, raise their own chickens in the back yard. Many still hunted and ate small game as well as large game. My mom made her clothing and much of that for us kids. I have a sewing machine and know how to run it too.

Anyway, prices have changed because expectations, ambitions, and the whole view of folk's places, roles, and responsibilities in life have changed.

Some folk see those changes as for the better. Me, I ain't quite sure.......

I like your style, AC.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
ASome folk see those changes as for the better. Me, I ain't quite sure.......

I'm sure. Produced a totally different breed of cat.People like your dad were, can do. Today it's can buy on credit for as long as that lasts. roger

By choice, the living quarters in my paid for house (HOME)is 1000 ft.^2.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
I like your style, AC.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
ASome folk see those changes as for the better. Me, I ain't quite sure.......

I'm sure. Produced a totally different breed of cat.People like your dad were, can do. roger

By choice, the living quarters in my paid for house (HOME)is 1000 ft.^2.

Roger - Actually,I'm sure too!! I was just trying to stay a little tiny bit open-minded about the modern "government dependants".

But actually, I try in every way to be like my dad was...raised (and hunted) my own food until the new wife refused to eat ANY game meat or even home-grown beef. Fixed my own cars 'til they became electronic monsters instead of mechanical servants.

Have my own lathe, welder, and other machine shop tools. Also, a large shop full of actual hand tools (you know, the old things that didn't have electricity attached to them...<Grin> Make my own rifles except for barrels & actions (and I'm about to start that). Repair my own clothing, AND appliances. Gather, chop & stack my own firewood. Get water from my own well. Do most of my own agricultural, electrical and plumbing work, window glazing, construction, and even lock repair around this place. Prune and care for my own fruit trees. Lots more. Can't do everything, but at least am not one of those who hasn't bothered to learn to do anything.

In my 70s I am slowing down physically, but I'll get a long permanent rest some day not very far off. In the meantime, I like what independence I can muster.

There's lots more folks like me out there, but unfortunately our world is becoming more and more a planet of mental serfs who depend on taxing and otherwise legally stealing the fruits of our work so they don't have to do anything themselves.

Guess I've said too much. Will now, hopefully, calm down so I don't continue this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:

Automobiles fall into a slippery slope category of irresponsible pricing. Why was a brand new Toyota 4x4 pickup less than $14,000.00 in 1993, with all the options and a V-6 engine, when in 1999 they were nearly $30,000.00? That's double in 6 years......

I can buy off on the rate of inflation to some extent, but the automobile industry is working us over the coals.

Matt,

In 1993 - what did a fully loaded pickup truck have? Power windows. Power door locks. Cloth seats. A/C. Some makes had keyless entry, most did not. None, to my knowledge, were yet equipped with air bags. Shift on the fly electronic 4WD hadn't been introduced yet, you still had to pull the lever(and in some cases, still lock the hubs).

In 1999 - you have government mandated driver and passenger air bags. Its now hard damn difficult to find a "loaded" truck without leather seats, and most are heated. You have a government mandated on board diagnostic system for the engine management system. You have crash testing "requirements" being handed down from "Insurance Institutes". You have CD players with 6-disc changers, Navigation Systems, DVD's screens in the backs of the rear seats, power rear sliding windows, moonroofs, power seats, built in electronic trailer brake controllers, heated seats, leather wrapped steering wheels, 700 watt stereo systems, overhead consoles, 7 cup holders - some of which might be refrigerated.

And with the exception of the governmental regulations, and the Insurance lobbyists, its all been driven by consumer demand. One manufacturer introduces something, and the rest have to offer it to keep their market share.

Its difficult, if not impossible, to sell "work" trucks at most retailers now. If you're in a rural area, most will still inventory some. If you're not, usually only one or two stores will even try to get in the commercial, "actual use" market.

In 1993, a lot of people still "used" their trucks, the next time you're in the parking lot at the mall, see how many new trucks have the paint scuffed in the bed.....

As to the comment about comparing 1959 prices...today the base MSRP of an F-150 is $19,200.

Here's what you get for that money, as standard equipment:

Blk Bar Style Grille Inser
P235/70R17 BSW A/S Tires
17" Grey Styled Steel Whls
Interval Wipers
Locking Removable Tailgate w/ Lift Assist
Rear Solar Tinted Glass
Spare Tire & Wheel Lock


Interior:


AM/FM Stereo w/Clock
Black Vinyl Floor Covering
Day-Night Rearview Mirror
Dome Lamp/Dual Map Lights
Tilt Steering Wheel


Functional:


26 Gallon Fuel Tank
Alternator 110 Amp
4 Pin Trailer Wiring
Auxiliary Power Point
Cargo Box Tie Down Hooks
Fail-Safe Cooling System
Maint Free Battery w/Saver
Manual Windows&Door Locks
Power Rack Pinion Steering
Stabilizer Bar, Front
Outboard Mntd Rear Shocks
Fully Boxed Frame


Safety & Security:


4-Wheel Disc Brakes w/ABS
Air Bags, Driv/Front Pass
SecuriLock
Rear High Mount Stop Lamp


Warranty:


3Yr/36,000 Bumper / Bumper
5Yr/60,000 Powertrain
5Yr/60,000 Roadside Assist

Like everyone, I remember when things were cheaper, and I had less money. Like in 1969 when I wandered into Oshman's Sporting Goods and didn't have $69.95 for the used Parker 410 DH.

quote:

Originally posted by fireball168:

Matt,

In 1993 - what did a fully loaded pickup truck have? Power windows. Power door locks. Cloth seats. A/C. Some makes had keyless entry, most did not. None, to my knowledge, were yet equipped with air bags. Shift on the fly electronic 4WD hadn't been introduced yet, you still had to pull the lever(and in some cases, still lock the hubs).

In 1999 - you have government mandated driver and passenger air bags. Its now hard damn difficult to find a "loaded" truck without leather seats, and most are heated. You have a government mandated on board diagnostic system for the engine management system. You have crash testing "requirements" being handed down from "Insurance Institutes". You have CD players with 6-disc changers, Navigation Systems, DVD's screens in the backs of the rear seats, power rear sliding windows, moonroofs, power seats, built in electronic trailer brake controllers, heated seats, leather wrapped steering wheels, 700 watt stereo systems, overhead consoles, 7 cup holders - some of which might be refrigerated.

And with the exception of the governmental regulations, and the Insurance lobbyists, its all been driven by consumer demand. One manufacturer introduces something, and the rest have to offer it to keep their market share.

Its difficult, if not impossible, to sell "work" trucks at most retailers now. If you're in a rural area, most will still inventory some. If you're not, usually only one or two stores will even try to get in the commercial, "actual use" market.

In 1993, a lot of people still "used" their trucks, the next time you're in the parking lot at the mall, see how many new trucks have the paint scuffed in the bed.....

As to the comment about comparing 1959 prices...today the base MSRP of an F-150 is $19,200.

Here's what you get for that money, as standard equipment:

Blk Bar Style Grille Inser
P235/70R17 BSW A/S Tires
17" Grey Styled Steel Whls
Interval Wipers
Locking Removable Tailgate w/ Lift Assist
Rear Solar Tinted Glass
Spare Tire & Wheel Lock


Interior:


AM/FM Stereo w/Clock
Black Vinyl Floor Covering
Day-Night Rearview Mirror
Dome Lamp/Dual Map Lights
Tilt Steering Wheel


Functional:


26 Gallon Fuel Tank
Alternator 110 Amp
4 Pin Trailer Wiring
Auxiliary Power Point
Cargo Box Tie Down Hooks
Fail-Safe Cooling System
Maint Free Battery w/Saver
Manual Windows&Door Locks
Power Rack Pinion Steering
Stabilizer Bar, Front
Outboard Mntd Rear Shocks
Fully Boxed Frame


Safety & Security:


4-Wheel Disc Brakes w/ABS
Air Bags, Driv/Front Pass
SecuriLock
Rear High Mount Stop Lamp


Warranty:


3Yr/36,000 Bumper / Bumper
5Yr/60,000 Powertrain
5Yr/60,000 Roadside Assist

Thanks Fireball, ytou have made a lot of my points stronger for me.


First off, on the price of a truck these days... Trucks which are not available to be bought are not options. If the dealer does not stock them, there is no point in talking about theoretical prices.

Reminds me of the time a guy came into our shop and asked, "What do you guys want for a plain-jane 10-22?' We told him, $129.99.

He was offended! "Why", he said,"Bi-Mart has them on sale for $109.99!!" So we asked him why he didn't go there and buy one? "They don't have any in stock", he said. So we told him, when we don't have any in stock we sell them for $69.99, but we do have some in stock, and those are $129.99.

The fact that "public demand" keeps the dealer from selling the Plain Jane models, is exactly what I was saying I don't admire about the public these days. I was not criticizing the dealer for that.

Then, of course, I don't admire the fact that rather than saving until they have the money to actually buy a truck, the great anonymous "public" buys on credit. So, are they actually paying $19,000 even if the get the Plain Jane model? No, they sure aren't. They are paying $19,000 plus three years or more of interest at somewhere between 7% and 12% per year, compounded. I don't have an amortization table handy, but would guess that would end up costing them in total at least $24,500 or so, particularly if the dealer provided the financing. Well, that's $5,500 more than they needed to pay...enough to swing a damn nice hunting rifle to carry in the truck.

Actually, a lot of dealers are as much in the finance business as in the car business. They make a good percent of their bottom line on finance charges pursuant to the vehicle sales. They also make a significant portion on "package" sales and "extended warranty" sales, where a few good extra items a customer might want can only be obtained if he also buys a lot of crap he doesn't want, bundled with it at greatly inflated prices.

And don't forget all the other BS... I looked at a new Toyota pickup in Phoenix, AZ. MSRP was X dollars. But, on the sticker was an item I didn't recognize, as an add-on to MSRP. So I asked about it. After a lot of shilly-shallying, the salesman admitted it was an extra $4000 added on just because that model was in demand and they could get it. But, they didn't get it from me.

Ditto here in good old Rosebud. My wife wanted a new pickup, AND she wanted to establish her own credit. So we went to the local Chevy dealership where she picked out a particular model with the packages she wanted. MSRP was $27,000. Salesman offered to cut us a deal and let us have it for "only $31,600". Again extended conversation produced the info that Hansen (the dealership owner) mandated the extra because he figured he could get it for that model. I had the cash in my pocket to pay for it, just in case they didn't want to provide my wife with a suitable interest rate, but we left without buying it at all. Instead we went to the local GMC dealership, got exactly the same truck and packages under a different badge, for $7,000 less than Hansen wanted. And, the GMC dealer made a profit on the vehicle, the packages, and the finance.



Then, there is the list you posted of standard equipment and caveats regarding them.

How many of the mandated government equipment specs are actually good, useful, things? Well, in my opinion, not many. If they are really so good, how come the government has to mandate them? One would think the public would be clamoring for them, not having to have them forced down their throats. NO?

And, please don't preach to me about how much they help the consumers. Balderdash. I bought a new car with an OBD system. After 2+ years it started having unpredictable days where it simply would NOT start or run. I spent over $5,000 having the supposedly "top" diagnostic specialists in two U.S. factory service regions examine it. they all pronounced it cured after their ministrations. In neither instance did anything change or improve. So, I gave it to a friend of mine who is a patient, intelligent, man who needed a car. (Actually, he made me a great steelhead rod using a top Sage blank in exchange.) Anyway, Del went over the whole car with a $2 volt-meter and finally found the problem...a short in the wiring for the left rear tail-light. Car has run well with regular maintenance since then. So much for the magic of OBD...



And a lot of the other options on a list of oprtions on vehicles actually stocked are a sign of what I am talking about too.

Look on that list and ask yourself...how many of those things do anything but make the owner more dependent on the vehicle and the supplier of parts "modules" for it? How many of them are to cater to laziness or softness?

How many of them can be repaired, or must be totally replaced instead?

No wonder we can't win a war against a third world country which is used to doing for itself in tough circumstances. "We" are often too soft to even win at everyday life.

Nice to reminisce and all, but I remember 18% interest in the 80s and chose not to buy a new truck. That $16,500.00 Chevy was no bargain then, and neither is the $53,500.00 Duramax today.
I now understand why people trade vehicles so often as one can't afford to keep them as we did in the past, and a person sure as heck can't work on them at home.
Yup, times are a changin'.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Actually, a lot of dealers are as much in the finance business as in the car business. They make a good percent of their bottom line on finance charges pursuant to the vehicle sales. They also make a significant portion on "package" sales and "extended warranty" sales, where a few good extra items a customer might want can only be obtained if he also buys a lot of crap he doesn't want, bundled with it at greatly inflated prices.

Transaction prices keep rising, no different that with our favorite hobby here. The margins however, don't seem to be changing along with it.

I'd suspect you'd be shocked to see how many dealerships are operating at a loss in their sales(both new and used) departments. The parts and service departments are keeping the doors open.

As a % of square feet in the dealership, almost without exception, the finance office absolutely makes the most money....but again, we're not talking about a significant % of total net.

As I recall from NADA best in class ROS in 2006 was just over 5%, average domestic >2.5%.

quote:

Shame on you, Roger! That's really Arkansas of you.

No, that would be really TEXAS of you!!