Gunmaker,

As I mentioned earlier, these stocks were already inletted for bottom metal before I got a hold of them, and the gap and problems that occurred were unavoidable, but it's the only thing I could dig up around the shop in between trying to get parts out the door.

We had to rely upon the accuracy of the inletting that had taken place on the topside, which wasn't good at all in order to dial it in on the bottom. Providing that we inletted the top as well as the bottom, they'd both be better.

In pic one and THREE, that doesn't seem to be being hosted well my Hunt101, don't confuse gap with the bottom metal being recessed. The bottom metal had already been blued before I fitted it to this stock....After it was inletted the stock was sanded down to match the bottom metal and reblued. What looks like a gap, is not, merely the bottom metal sitting below the surface. This happen to be one of the pics that was taken as work in progress. I explained to the customer that if he wanted it to fit right, there would be no way around sanding the wood down to fit the metal. I got it as close as I could, then showed him these pics and explained. He decided he wanted me to finish it complete.

I also don't proclaim to be a good photographer, but it's the best I could come up with.

Pic 2 was a Boyd's JRS Classic that had been set up for a BDL that was horribly offcenter and off angle from the factory 2.5 degrees for Remington. In this case, by hand, or machine, this was as good as it was going to get. The factory metal had enough gap in there to throw a cat through, and even with our extra wide front tang, is still wasn't quite enough.

Starting from scratch, or at least close to scratch, proved to be the best for obvious reasons.

First, I apologize for taking so long to get these posted, but busy wouldn't describe my last couple of weeks.
These are some pics of customers guns that had already been inletted for either an ADL or BDL configuration that we cleaned up.

Some of the stocks that we did that hadn't had any inletting done on them turned out much nicer for obvious reasons, but their whereabouts is still a mystery. A couple of those were Bastogne that proved to be very stable for this process.
Anyhow, here they are.









The biggest problem in CNC inletting stocks is the fact that no one out there is making both the bottom metal, and the stock inletting, so knowing what the exact dimensions need to be for the outside profile is nearly impossible. This is the same problem when it comes to actions. Actions vary so much dimensionally, that you could rarely find two that are close enough to make a program that would do them right.
This is why most people put the badmouth on CNC inletting because they see large volume producers trying to manufacture a stock that's a "one-size-fits-all", and it just don't work.
When we CNC inlet stocks, it's one at a time, and even though the outside profile of our bottom metal won't vary more than .001", we still set up the stock based on one bottom metal that's going in it....make necessary tool adjustments, and make it to fit.

Can you take a customer's blank, profile it, then inlet it to his barreled action like these pics? How much?

Oh my God, that is beautiful wood/metal fit!
JCN

I have built stocks from a 2 CNC simi inletted stocks, and I had the metal in the wood in about an hour and it looked good. About all that I had to do was the cornors.

I agree it is a great alternative, and so much better than the standard simi inlet, that there is no comparison...My new 404 laminate is from a CNC inlet...

I would add that you must send them your pattern stock glassed or bondo'ed including the bottom metal and keep in mind what you send is what you get back, so no mistakes..

I better not send them one of mine

Matt
Would you like some barbeque sauce with your crow? I'd like to point out some satements you made a while back on the "From block of wood to finishable" thread.

Matt's previous post:

Try as one might, it's impossible to acheive the accuracy with a manual duplicator, or by hand that can be obtained with CNC.

The results are better than one would ever achieve with conventional tools.

I truely enjoy looking at hand inletted stocks that are done well, but I've yet to see my first that didn't have some sort of imperfections in them....Not to say that they weren't top notch, but there were errors. That's something I can't say about my CNC.



Ok, I'm not trying to start any flame wars but.........

Matt, with respect to your previous comments:

pic#1
using the screw hole as center of a clock, there is gap that starts on top at the floorplate and goes to around 4:00 , and another one that starts at 7:00 and continues to the floorplate.

pic#2
The left side is very good and the gap starts around 2:00 and goes to the floorplate.

pic#3
Along the top and bottom rail there is a small gap and a larger one at the top left corner of the picture.

pic#4
It looks like the same gap from pic#3 top left corner, showing up again now in the bottom of the frame.



Now I understand why you stated eariler that a stock can't be inletted perfectly by hand. My guess is it's because you can't do it perfectly with a CNC and feel if you can't with a $100,000 CNC then nobody else can either by any meathod. The Fisher/Burgess rifle I talked about in the other thread did not have any gaps as large as what you have created with your CNC. I'm sure it was inlet by hand with a MUCH better final fit.



I do think however that the work you have done in the pics above does provide your customer with a VERY GOOD "not perfect" inlet for a reasonable price. It is not however in the same class as the top notch custom work available today and it shouldn't be. A customer needs to understand that if he spends cubic dollars for top notch custom then he should expect fantastic fit. And, if he spends a reasonable amount with you then he should expect a reasonable inlet for his money invested.

Quote:

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The biggest problem in CNC inletting stocks is the fact that no one out there is making both the bottom metal, and the stock inletting, so knowing what the exact dimensions need to be for the outside profile is nearly impossible..........

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I thought you made the bottom metal and CNC machined the inlet in the pics above.

My point still is and will always be, if you want to utilize a CNC machine for top notch custom work then you better not try to do it all on the CNC and leave some extra material for that perfect fit that is available ONLY BY HAND!

If you want a better floormetal than factory and have it installed all for a reasonable price then it looks like Matt Williams can help you out.

gunmaker

I used to frequent an automotive speed shop and above the counter the guy had a sign that read: "Speed costs money...How fast do you want to go?"

It seems as though most people desperately want a quick and cheap method of duplicating the expensive and time consuming work that is practiced by truly custom artisans. Not very likely to happen real soon!

Going back to my opening paragraph...not everyone needs or wants (or can afford) a professional race car that will do 250 MPH and they will better served by one that only does 120.

Rick

I could not see the pics. Too bad. I am sure this is the way more and more stocks will be done in the future.

"Try as one might, it's impossible to acheive the accuracy with a manual duplicator, or by hand that can be obtained with CNC."

If you are talking about dropping your barreled action in the wood without ajustment I would have to disagree. Nothing beats hand work by a good stock maker. Wood varies in texture and will move over time. As stated before not all actions and barrels are exactly the same. If you are talking about making all your cuts a bit undersize and finishing up by hand I am sure you are right. Nothing like having a well done pre inlet stock. I have had some trouble with that from a company we hear about from time to time on this forum. With the stocks I have gotten from them they were so bad you just could not do a decent job because they removed material that did not need to be removed. One of them had the bottome metal mis-aligned, and grosely so. I guess stock making is kind of like carving a statue. Remove all the material that is not a Greek figure, or gunstock. Simple in concept. Not so easy in exicution. I digress.

I have found that does not matter how you rough it in, all that matters is how well it is finished up. Of course it needs to be laid out right. After that, I don't care if a trained rat chewed out the inlet as long as he left me all the wood I need to finish. I can't put wood back, well not easily. If you put a little taper on your metal you should be able to make a tight no gap fit on the final fitting. Nothing will replace carefull spotting, scraping and shaving to get that perfect no gap fit. Trouble is that if you have your action and barrel wedged in there it probably won't shoot. So the real skill comes in judging how tight it really is. That is what must have taken the master stock makers years to learn to do in any reasonable amount of time. I certainly can't do it quickly but I and eventually get there.

With the advent of glass bedding compound I am not sure how germain this is for the interior inletting. You will probably glass bed it anyway. So, where it shows there should be absolutely no gaps. Inside it sould be neat and professional. To get the perfect contact and relief we now use compound. I can't see a reason to do days of carefully scraping to get perfect contact inside. Glass bedding is more stable and makes a closer fit. I am not talking about making a mess and pouring it full of compound. Do a neat carefull job and get that perfect fit with the glass. Anyway, I have been all over the place on this one. Happy stock making.

Nice job ... almost as good as Craftsmen Gunsmiths with hand tools have done for a couple of hundred years.

hey specialist...
your statement is correct.. and here's why

1: Matt didn't have to spend 15 years training on how to inlett, like a true grand master

2: a cnc operator can be trained in 6 to 8 months to do this perfectly... i htink i learned how to NOT MAKE A MESS bedding in that amount of time...

3: it takes minutes, not MONTHS for the cnc machinist to turn over your work....

4: there's more cnc mills in houston than master gunsmiths in texas, .. in fact, the level of gunsmith I think could compare are few and far between... I aint this good... and, frankly, i couldn't turn out 5 per day, 7 days a week, even if i was that good.

so, yeah, a cnc operation is "almost as good" as a master... I only know a bout 3 to 5 guys i'ld place in the master ranks... hmm, isn't a craftfellow between jouneryman and master? On a GOOD day I am a jouneryman fitter.... and so are most of the other gunsmiths outthere...

So, Matt, keep up the good work.. there'll always be purist that think a machine will be a different quality... those same guys will probably be the same ones that want a "hand carved" stock rather than a machine duplicated one.

jeffe

"So, Matt, keep up the good work.. there'll always be purist that think a machine will be a different quality... those same guys will probably be the same ones that want a "hand carved" stock rather than a machine duplicated one."

Spot on ... As long as there are people, who will pay the price, to keep this great art alive. We lesser mortals can continue to marvel at thier craft.

Specialist...
we are in total agreement...

and, frankly, i don't personally know but one person that could think he could tell, from the finished product, if it was hand carved or cnc inletted and hand finished...

I know I couldn't

jeffe

Sometimes you can FEEL the difference, even when you can't see it.

But only when you know its there. The really sorry part is neither is getting paid what they're worth, for the most part.

Having taken CNC machining course for 2yrs at a trade school and working as a machinist I learned several things they being that the machine is only as good as the operator, it can make the same part over and over it doesn�t get tired and make the same mistakes as a human can. This being said the average person would not notice the perfect fit difference that a master gun maker can do, but how many of us can afford it. The consistency of a CNC in my opinion will out do most of the average gunsmith work. I looked at the pictures and wood to metal fit was better than any of the guns I own none of which are cheap.



One thing to take into consideration is wood will expand and contract even the most perfect fit will change.

Matt,

i was agreeing with you... and while a master gunsmith can inlet better than a master machinist can, aebe, a master machinist will have a much higher chance of turning out the same /level quality, on monday as well as friday...



I don't think we are talking apples to apples on training... if a super machinst wanted to learn how to hand fit a rifle perfectly, he would STILL have to study on how to do that, for several years.... or, he could probably learn how to make a DAMN good rifle inletting off CNC in 6 months to a year.



jeffe

This is why quality guns are so prized. No matter what, process is used great skill and care combine to create something beautiful and functional.