Blue, if you can find a Milliron rifle, especially with Burgess metalwork, grab it! They are magnificent, and there will be no more of them.

I have a .270 Win. in my collection that was built in 1972 for a friend of mine who can no longer hunt. French walnut stock (with fiddleback end to end!) with recessed point pattern checkering, Milliron's signature inlaid forend tip and epoxy finish, Pre-64 Model 70 action with Burgess bottommetal, Burgess bolt handle with two checkered panels, built-up and checkered bolt release, custom Burgess bases with Redfield rings, Leupold 4X scope, reshaped tang, bluing by Tom Novotney, etc. An incredible rifle, very striking, yet very simple.

Many of today's rifles carry too much delicate detail work for my taste and for serious, practical use in the field.

AD

The purpose of shooting is hitting, and a fancy rifle that isn't accurate is, to me, an expensive liability that I'd rather not have invested in.



I do blame a gunmaker for not testing when he's building a high-end stock (or complete rifle) of fine wood at the going, mean, high-end rate. If I were a stockmaker turning out fine stocks that are considered to be in the best-quality class, I'd WANT to know how it shoots and otherwise functions. I'd consider it to be a professional obligation. Why not head off a potential problem (and eliminate a possible return and the expense involved thereof) before it gets out the door? Why not take that extra step to make sure the customer ends up happy with the performance of the rifle? Rangetime should be calculated into the price, and as a client, I'm only too happy to pay a gunmaker for time spent at the range. I'm money ahead if I do.



SDH, I don't mind paying a craftsman such as yourself to include extra features, extra attention to detail, range time, etc. It's money well-spent in my book, and I applaud the extra effort and skill involved.



Blue, "name" does enter into the price equation, but any gunmaker who achieves "name" status is usually very good - often astoundingly good - and has paid his dues to get there. To the client, that's worth a lot.......



AD

I retain targets from virtually every custom rifle built in my shop in the past 15 years. BUT, how many times do I read on this forum, "how much does this cost?" "Does Freddy do it cheaper?" "What's the best price I should pay for this?"

My custom guns are very expensive, as are Mr. Miller's and Mr. Echols'. All of the "extras" that Allen talks about take time and I charge for it. If one puts these extras into the project, sometimes the range time is shorter proving the rifle. Sometimes it isn't.

If one wants a cast action, pre-contoured-mass manufactured barrel and claro walnut duplicated to a standard pattern all to save money, why blame the stockmaker who cuts his price by not range testing the rifle?

Blue, your questions are good ones, however it is not the same as the custom knife world. I've often wondered how I would have faired in that market. I don't know how many hours it takes to make a Steve Hoel folder but I know exactly how long it takes to make every one of my rifles.



I keep track of my hours in 15 minute increments and have done so for nearly 20 years. I charge a shop rate of $80 per hour, plus materials, and I tell new clients we won't know how much the project will cost until I'm done with it. I give them an estimate of hours but each project is an individual one in my shop because each gun is a unique entity.



The finest knife doesn't come close to the hours of preparation and constuction as the basic truly custom rifle. And for that reason alone, there is not the collectors market for custom rifles. I know many knife collectors that have a dozen pieces costing $1500 or more but few who have a dozen rifles costing $15,000 or more.



I was born to make things. I used to make all of the Christmas present I gave. My father was an engineer, Yale graduate, who loved to "make things". I never set my goals by finances, but I never ignored that arena. He taught me that. I've given myself a $5 per hour raise every other year for a couple of decades. I am fair to my clients, but I am fair to myself and each year has added to my dedication and therefor added to my worth to my clients.



My commercial existance is completely dedicated to my clients because they have allowed me to continue to "make things", I chose to make fine guns and have dedicated my life to that goal.



I can't count the number of talented gunmakers who I've seen go out of business, many with a shop full of work. I gladly pay my subcontractors what they ask and sometime more, because I want them to stay in business doing what they do, because it makes my guns all that much better. Do you see SDH guns on the resale market? No. because I am not prolific and because the client don't let go of them, they are a scarse item. (I've got a couple for sale because the client ask me to market them).There is no question if they shoot or function because I know they do and have the targets in hand.



Allen, I know from your posts that you are a Very critical consumer. Such as it is, you have some fine rifles that you apearently use. I applaud that. I also read about your plastic stocked rifles which to me will never be a truly custom rifle. After the first stock, they ARE all the same. To me, it is not just function and accuracy, it is about handling, balance, detailed craftsmanship, fine finishing plus function and accuracy. This stuff costs a lot more than a plastic stock and will endure for the future.



And by God, I write for a living and have only so much I can give in explaination to a limited audience.



While I applaude D'Arcy and Gene Simillion's work and have promoted each of them, I can't stand the idea of repeating myself so I do no bolt actions rifles.



By the way, my guarentee is for as long as I live. Developing a "name" will only get you what you are worth if you are willing to ask for it. Profit in the custom gun world is a very unusual experience. Profit comes from multiples, custom guns come singulary. Every succesful custom gunmaker has a sideline of multiples. Mine is books and magazine articles.



And, Blue, you will never find a duplicate of my rifles in either form, function or details because it just takes too much to get there. A few have tried to copy them but what is truly unique can't be copied. I've set my mentors by Jerry Fisher, Lenard Brownell, Ed Webber, Mark Silver and John Bivins. I've yet to see a copy of their work. I've known each of them and seen and handled their work. Each of these guys created unique rifles, one-of-a-kind.



I hunt with my own rifles and shotguns, and have for decades. I am one of the few custom gunmakers who has and does. I know how they stand up to usage and I know what abuses then. Each one is hallmarked SDH in 24k gold, my tombstone, such as it is.

SDH

You certainly will receive no complaint from here about your charging for the time you put into your work.

However, isn't it true that in the custom gun world there is more to it than the time a person puts into a piece to determine the pieces worth. Isn't it true that having paid ones dues so to speak, and the development of a name, has a lot to do with it.

I know that is true in the custom knife world. One can buy an absolutely beautiful drop point hunter made from the exact same materials and to the exact same degree of sophistication by an unknown maker and pay 50 times less than what one would pay to buy the same knife with the Loveless logo acid etched on it.

And in the custom gun world, would it not be true that one could amass the necessary materials and commission two different gunmakers, one a known name, and one with a lot of ambition but not a known name, both with the same skills, and pay a lot more for one piece than for the other?

I am curious. When you build a bespoke gun, do you actually make a time card and list the actual time that you spent on each part of the gun, and then price the gun by the time you spent, or do you contemplate the amount of money you need for yourself and your family per year, divide it by the number of guns you can make in a year, and charge accordingly.

I do not ask these questions out of disrespect, but rather because I think that a lot of people ask about price and about discounts and all of that other stuff because they really do not understand just exactly what goes into a custom piece due to the fact that there is such a wide variety of prices and because it is difficult for the lay person to determine just what quality is and what the differece is between one quality and another.

Blue