Able to obtain/purchase at reasonable price, box(5) of subject complete actions. I understand the value of their bottom metal, etc., but as a general rule, if there is such a thing, are these actions able to handle loads/pressures as one would experience in 416 Taylor?? I knew the original owner several years ago and he stripped like new military rifles all the time and built many a sporter over the years and condition on the actions are as new. I will have them hardness tested, but curious of others experience with these actions. I took delivery of several VZ24's couple years ago and they all ended up as very nice rifles. Any other suggestions as to caliber/builds would appreciate your input. Have some typical big bores, but the 416 Taylor looks to be a well balanced big bore and yet will not spin you around as some of the others do!!

No, those old '09s aren't worth a thing. Send them to me and I'll properly dispose of them...

Seriously, some would say they're some of the best for custom rifles and suitable for just about any caliber you can imagine.

Appreciate your quick response. Should mention that I also got an additional Argentine that I believe was mfg. in Brazil? It is marked 09, but believe I read somewhere many a year ago that they did transfer mfg. to Brazil or Argentine from Germany somewhere along the line?? It does not appear to have the effort put into the fit and finish of the DWM's but again, curious. If it will test out OK, will polish off the various inscriptions and use for common sporter use.

I had one made into a beautiful .257 Roberts for my son.

dsiteman: I have one of those too...you're right on about the "effort extended" I suspect they are a pretty good action, but I seem to always pass it by in favor of some other action. Like to hear more about these actions

Tip Burns built me a nice .416 Taylor on a 1909 DWM action. Beautiful gun. I am still amazed at how solid and smooth the bolt functioning is on these actions. I love the 1909 actions.

Here is a link to some pictures:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=506100755#506100755

A few years back I had a 9.3X62 built with a 1909 action. IMO it's a wonderful action to start a custom project with. The fit and finish are a lot better than a lot of mausers I've handled.

I would probably get them heat treated just for insurance.

Terry

Fine looking examples of custom rifles and would venture a guess the color/case work done by Doug Turnbull?? I have sent a fair number of pcs. to him over the years and plan on sending more in the near future. The bolt handle on the 416 Taylor is about what I have in mind. Did the 'smith you mention do that work for you?? Looks very appropriate and curious if the stock(Hogue) you are using is holding up OK on recoil? Thanks for the input on Mauser rifles.

I presume that the bolt handle and Hogue questions are directed to me. Yes, Tip Burns did all the work on the rifle (barrel work, sights, blueing, scope bases, safety, etc.) and forged the bolt handle from the one that came on the rifle. I may be using the word forged incorrectly, but Tip basically heated and shaped the old straight bolt handle to the one shown in the picture. The stock is holding up fine. I have the version with the full length aluminum bedding block so that helps I am sure. That said, I have had fewer than 200 rounds through the rifle so it is not like the stock has been through an endurance test by any means. I have recently mounted a Burris FastFire dot sight on the rifle and really like that addition.

I wanted to start a post on the 1909, but like someone said the other day, just wait and someone will ask the same question. I seen one at the Tulsa gunshow (action only) that had a severe lug set back in the reciever ring...deep impression. I would at least have it hardness checked before spending the bucks.
As to the other Mausers on the block, the 1909 Args. just have that high dollar watch making feel to them, nice mechanical feel...

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
dsiteman: I have one of those too...you're right on about the "effort extended" I suspect they are a pretty good action, but I seem to always pass it by in favor of some other action. Like to hear more about these actions

I have three of the Argie made Argies. I've asked about them here and the impression I got was that they are not as finely finished as the DWM's, might or might not be softer and need heat treating, but other than that perfectly serviceable. I wouldn't go build an all out custom on one, don't have those nice markings.

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
dsiteman: I have one of those too...you're right on about the "effort extended" I suspect they are a pretty good action, but I seem to always pass it by in favor of some other action. Like to hear more about these actions

I have three of the Argie made Argies. I've asked about them here and the impression I got was that they are not as finely finished as the DWM's, might or might not be softer and need heat treating, but other than that perfectly serviceable. I wouldn't go build an all out custom on one, don't have those nice markings.

IMO, they both need heat treating. Both tend toward the soft side and can stand what we in the day called case hardening. I would not sink the cost of a full custom build into either without it. Both can be built into high quaity customs. And, I doubt that if the distinshishing markeings were removed 99% would notice adifference if both were built properly.

Without a doubt the DWM's are better as they sit but by how much is the question. It seems most people are willing to pay extra money for the DWM simply because of its cachet. Sometimes however the label itself and not the product is why we purchase things. Think Coke vs New Coke.

rem 721....Interesting thoughts about re-heat treating. I personally never saw a 1909 with set back. Ted Blackburn claims that the carburizing treatment in the recoil areas belie the so called "testing" (on the bottom of the action) I'd like to hear more about this!

For anyone interested, you can do a search for Systeme98 you will find Thomas Burgess's dissertation on the subject. If I remember correctly, the consensus was that these 1909s do not have much carbon in their steel, and that any heat treatment used should attempt to induce a bit of carbon into the outer skin. I have an old brochure from John Westrum down in Iowa who used to work on Mausers. In his brochure he recommended having them treated with a Cyanide salt bath because it induced some carbon into the skin. You can get some info on the subject by calling Pacmet, which is where many folks, including Tom Burgess, send their actions.

I know from personal experience that if the heat treater doesn't know what they are doing one can get back a pretty warped action, or two!

http://www.pacmet.com/

I understand these guys really know their stuff. I'm sending them a BRNO (m-21) that some fool welded on the ring to disguise some holes (Better to have just left the holes!) At any rate, I'm anxious to see what they come up with...also...a real crappy job of welding!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
rem 721....Interesting thoughts about re-heat treating. I personally never saw a 1909 with set back. Ted Blackburn claims that the carburizing treatment in the recoil areas belie the so called "testing" (on the bottom of the action) I'd like to hear more about this!

Duane,

I have seen 1909's with setback. One was a rifle a customer had done up by another smith. Never knew who did it but it was first rate work. Anyhow, the guy came in saying his action wis sticky. Bolt lift after firing was hard. Well, the barrel came off and sure enough, there was setback. So, we machined the lug seats, gave the bolt lugs a little lapping in the seats and then sent the action out for heat treating. His was chambered in .30-06 and he only used factory loads. I set the barrel back a bit, just enough to correct headspace but his high dollar stock work now had gaps where before it looked like the wood had grown around the metal.

The other that stands out is one that a fella brought in to be made into a hunting rifle. This one appeared to have been unissued. Story was he got it when down in South America as an advisor. I pulled the barrel and inspected the seats and there on the top seat was the tell tale ejector slot ridge.

These actions and most of that era were pack hardened. They packed material onto the surfaces they wanted to harden. More on the wear areas, seats, extractor cam, etc. Less on the outside. In fact, previously used material was used on most exterior surfaces where less hardness was needed. So, yes, a test on the underside of the action will not be a good indicator of how hard the lugs, seats, etc, are.

My point I suppose is that hardness seems to vary and since there is no good way, as you point out, to test, I prefered to have them hardened.

Nice post-

rem721.

flaco

Yum, the M1909s are sweet. I've had two 6.5-06s made from 1909 actions, and they each absorbed the hottest loads I dared try without a squeak. They're are a fine choice for reworks.

LLS

Rem 721: Well, there's no substitute for hands on experience...Thanks for your input Duane

I don't think I've ever laughed so hard at an AR post.

You are a funny guy, Duane Wiebe.

flaco

N.B. I try not to post opinions anymore.

In this case, I don't think I have to.

If the actions preferred--and used--by Guild members at the Reno show when I was there a couple of years ago are any indication... they don't come any better than the 1909.

There may be exceptions.

The 33/40 for one.

A "Banner" action from the mid-30s.

But the 1909?

The cream in my coffee and the salt in my stew.

Well Flaco, I'm glad you had a good chuckle.