I have a problem that I need some advice on. A year and a half ago I purchased an unusual rifle at a gun show in Tulsa. It was a Kurtz action custom rifle in 250-3000. I sent the barrelled action to this metalsmith for evaluation and because it seems to have some feeding issues. I asked him to look over the rifle and adjust it for feeding.He said it would not take much time at all. He is, I believe, a great metalsmith and also had a fine reputation for custom work. He had the rifle for about nine months and I called to inquire on the progress of the rifle. I would talk to him for an hour or more at a time. I called him several times in the first year, again, asking about the progress and got the response that it was done and would be sent out within the week. It never happened. I asked tha even if not repaired, please send my stuff back. I would call to follow up and always the same response, it will go out within the week. this has gone on for over one and a half years. I don't want to do him harm, I only want my rifle back! I have asked that a friend of his intervene in the issue as I do not want to have to get a legal resolution to the situation. Between us we have contacted this person 12 times with no resolution.

What is my next step??? I have thought to report this guy for theft by misappropriation. He is an older man and I do not want to soil his reputation. This deprivation is real and troublesome. I am thinking of reporting his man to the BATF so it can never happen again. I really dont want to do that. I also don't want to loose a custom rifle I paid over $50000.00 for.

Have you tried the certified letter approach (return receipt requested of course)? You can contact local law enforcement if need be. Have you paid for the work?

$50,000.00???

For a $50000.00 rifle I would be on his doorstep.

quote:

Originally posted by JLarsson:
$50,000.00???

My eyes must be tired -- I read it as $5000.

You might as well cough up the name. Anyone that would jack you around with a firearm of this value needs to be outed!

Well if it only had three 0 much less four I would be there in person. I think that local law would be better suited to help than the ATF.
Certified letter would be a place to start.

lb, sorry to hear of this. I take it that he is to far away from you to make a road trip?
I would send a letter/sig required, demanding return of the gun/action within 10 days. After the 10 days, if no gun, I would post his name and location here and I am sure we have members that will be within 100 miles of his location that would be more than willing to swing by and pick up your gun. good luck with this

Calling the ATF is a very extreme step. It is a step to be taken only after everything else has failed. The ATF will in all likeihood not get involved in your personl probelm, but it will get his attention and could literally make the rest of his life miserable. It should only be doen if everything else has failed.

Start with the registered letter saying you want the gun back immediately.

If that does not work, call the local sheriff's office and see what pressure they will put on him. depending on th eoffice, it may be none, or it could be a lot.

If that does not work, send him another registered letter telling him he has "x" number of days to send you the rifle or you are going to the ATF.

I agree with your decision not to post his name here. Good luck and I hope you have your rifle back very soon.

If the local sherriff will not get involved, it would not hurt to post his location and see if some one here would go by and try to get the rifle. Surely the guy will not give the gun to some one other than you without something in writing and notarized from you, but it may prompt him to mail you the rifle that day.

I would say that I would do the registered letter first, demanding return of the property within 10 days. I would also state that unless it is returned Court action WILL commence on X day in superior court. Court action is the place to finish this: Now before everyone jumps down my throat please listen!

1. You will have exhausted good faith efforts, and he has not complied.

2. When you Start a legal action he will be forced take notice by law.

3. Everyone gets a chance to explain themselves in front of a Judge, who then makes a decision and issues orders.

4. Court decisions are enforcable, and they put teeth in the decision.

5. puting him on notice of an action or By filing an action, you have a greater than 90% chance of resolving the action before the first hearing...nothing gets someones attention like being served with court papers...I bet this problem would be first on his priority list! I bet he would rather respond that the issue is resolved and no need of further action is needed than have to take off work and appear in court.

Since you won't be using this guy again I wouldn't worry about wether or not he likes you...This WILL get you property back unless he is really into pain and a real idiot.

Hansel,
Very good advice. He needs to have some fear that something will happen and it will be serious if he does not respond. The local police will not do anything until a crime has been committed and a complaint filed.

LB, hope this works out for you.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Surely the guy will not give the gun to some one other than you without something in writing and notarized from you, but it may prompt him to mail you the rifle that day.

Even with that he couldn't legally give someone else the gun. He would have to treat it like a sale and do all the required paper work (4473) and background checks on the party retrieving the gun.

Good point Malm! It would have to be treated like a transfer of ownership

I really don't understand the problem. For a 50k rifle I would have already bought a plane ticket or driven to his house and "taken" my rifle back. No offense, but being worried about someone's reputation after asking for your 50k rifle for a year and a half borders on ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:
I really don't understand the problem. For a 50k rifle I would have already bought a plane ticket or driven to his house and "taken" my rifle back. No offense, but being worried about someone's reputation after asking for your 50k rifle for a year and a half borders on ridiculous.

My thoughts exactly. If you can afford a $50,000.00 firearm you can afford a plane ticket.

quote:

No offense, but being worried about someone's reputation after asking for your 50k rifle for a year and a half borders on ridiculous.

I agree. I find lb404's patience generous but people make (or break) their own reputations and if his reputation were to take a hit it'd be of his own doing and well deserved. For that amount of money I'd have been on his door step a long time ago.

I am just getting home form a hellish week of call!
The rifle was $5000.00 not 50K that mistakenly typed! S
ORRY.

Lb404

Just to make this a bit more clear, is this a 5,000 Dollar rifle or is it a 50,000 Dollar rifle? If it's worth $50,000.00 , then you should make an arrangement in your schedule to pick it up in person.

I want to further state that I have called once a month for over a year(I gave him six months grace to work the project in). The story is always the same, the goods will go out next week. I know he is an older man with health problems, but there is no reason for him not to return my rifle to me. I want to thank all whom have sent me PM'S and I realise I am not the only customer he is misbehaving with. I do not want to sulley this mans name in the twilight of his career. Call me foolish but I won't kick him on his way out. If the letter approach does not work, I will rat him out, but want to give him a chance to beat the trap.

Very kind of you. Hope you get your goods back.

Leonard, I'm proud of the class you are showing by your restraint in outing the smith. Is his shop by chance on my way home?????........DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:
I really don't understand the problem. For a 50k rifle I would have already bought a plane ticket or driven to his house and "taken" my rifle back. No offense, but being worried about someone's reputation after asking for your 50k rifle for a year and a half borders on ridiculous.

Most states have laws that would allow him to shoot you if you tried this stunt.

22WRF,
Laws against someone reclaiming their own property. You can't be serious.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by Neverflinch:
I really don't understand the problem. For a 50k rifle I would have already bought a plane ticket or driven to his house and "taken" my rifle back. No offense, but being worried about someone's reputation after asking for your 50k rifle for a year and a half borders on ridiculous.

Most states have laws that would allow him to shoot you if you tried this stunt.

Laws that allow a person to be shot for showing up to claim thier own property? Plus enlighten us to just how that would be considered a "stunt"

Has someone been at the sauce a bit heavy tonight?

Howard and Customstox

The way the post was written, e.g. "taken" implied to me forcing ones way onto his property and into his house to retrieve the rifle. You force your way into one's house, even if it is to retrieve something that belongs to you and you could be looking at a justifiable homicide. Here is just one that I looked up on the internet.

"Justifiable Taking of Life.
The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exoses the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode"

Howard
My "sauce" is diet Moutain Dew. I will admit to a few tonight.

None of that was stated, only taken his goods and that does not translate into breaking and entering. You knock on the door and ask for your goods. Why you distort things so much to justify such rediculous comments that you make is beyond me. You better fire up your ankle biter Duikerman.

I just made my life easier. You just became the first person on my ignore list. Dickerman will be the second and that is certainly no loss, it is said that if you put his brain in a blender, you would not have enough to run a frog. The ignore list is a fine feature.

Customstox

I never said it was "stated". If you could read, which I sometimes think you can't, you would see that I used the word "implied".

I am happy that I am on your ignore list. That means I and everyone else on this board don't have to put up with your idiotic B.S. responses everytime I write something.

If any aggrieved parties are willing to contact me privately with a description of their project, and any relevant serial numbers, I will hold that in strict confidence (my livelihood is tied to my ability to hold a confidence). I will endeavor to resolve this discretely and fairly rapidly.

My facsimile number is (208) 337-3262
e-mail is johnnoak@cableone.net

Thanks,
LD

Blonde Jewish attorney?? Must be time for me to lay down the law.

LD

It's been a few years, but I got hosed on a $500 gun deal (guy in North Carolina sold me a stolen rifle via Gun List).

1) I involved the law enforcement agency where he was located and the rifle was stolen. Results: he was never charged with anything nor did I ever get any restitution.

2) Since I paid for the rifle with a Postal Money Order, I involved the Postal Authorities. Results: nothing, I mean absolutely nothing. (So much for the "pay-with-a-postal-money-order" crap )

3). I contacted a local North Carolina attorney. He was patient enough to give me ten minutes of his time (free!). Results: He chuckled at me, said I would probably spend three grand and maybe, repeat maybe, collect the $500. I will never forget his qoute: "The Courthouse could be wallpapered with uncollectable court orders".

4). Called ATF. Actually had an "in" with a true Enforcement Agent (not a paperwork type). He called the guy, (who was a non-licensed "dealer"). Result: Nothing, except it really pissed off the guy and he wouldn't respond to any of my calls/letters.

5). Called Gun List and presented them with all the facts about this guy. Results: They banned him from advertising...for a couple months. They then allowed him back in.

Bottom line: none of the above worked and I chalked it up to experience.

lb, since you are dealing with a 5K gun maybe you have more options. Hope it works out for you.

This is a pot of shit. I still will give him a chance to make things right. After that his name is mud and I will say so publicly until he dies. I will use legal action to haunt him. He will not like it. I have a deep pocket and will go on the offensive.

I have had luck with the ATF route.

I am sure he is a nice guy, but if he won't (or can't) return valuable property, you are doing the rest of us a favor by taking him out of the circulation of licensed gunsmiths (through loss of his FFL).

Since your rifle is valuable, the court is the next solution (if he doesn't cough it up when you make your complaint to the ATF).
A few states allow up to $5000 in small claims court, and if you get a judgement there, a county Sheriff will help you to enforce the judgement (and seize property to pay off the judgement).
By the way, your complaint to the ATF can be used in court.

Also, suppose you fly out there and pick the rifle up, your costs to do so can also be sought in small claims court (including flying back for the court hearing).

Even if you have to hire an attorney, you can include his fees in the judgement against the gunsmith.

Finally, on the off chance that he is suffering from early dementia (and as a practicing neurosurgeon I can tell you this is a lot more common in our aging population than you can imagine), perhaps you might try contacting a relative of his, and tell them what is happening.
You may find a very sympathetic audience in doing so (and a family member will have their own reasons why they don't want "dad" to get sued).

Good luck, and make sure you keep us all informed about what happens.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:

3). I contacted a local North Carolina attorney. He was patient enough to give me ten minutes of his time (free!). Results: He chuckled at me, said I would probably spend three grand and maybe, repeat maybe, collect the $500. I will never forget his qoute: "The Courthouse could be wallpapered with uncollectable court orders".

The willingness to spend $5,000 to get back the $500 you are owed pays dividends every time. Most often the judgement will include attorney's fees and other costs. Even if it doesn't, having a judgement in your favor is a license to make life miserable for the culprit for a very very long time.

If the culprit knows you are willing to spend whatever it takes to get justice, he's much more likely to make things right before it gets out of hand for him.

If provolked by inaction I can have a very deep pocket. That ploy works with the most stubborn/foolhearty folks out there. When you are right things can hit pretty hard.

A few years there was a gunsmith that posted on Shooters (Ask the Gunsmith". Complaints started to pile up about unfinished guns. His sons finally posted that he had brain damagr from a stroke and lost all short term memory.
Somthing to think about when dealing with an elderly person with "health problems".
Good Luck!
PS; I would think about a drive to see him.

I agree totally and that is why I have discretely discussed the issue. But at the end of the day, accountability must prevail. We are trying to work this out on several fronts at this time. Maybe all of the presuure brought to bare at the same time will have an impact on this smith to a point he realizes we are serious about this matter. I am not the only one in this position.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
None of that was stated, only taken his goods and that does not translate into breaking and entering. You knock on the door and ask for your goods. Why you distort things so much to justify such rediculous comments that you make is beyond me. You better fire up your ankle biter Duikerman.

I just made my life easier. You just became the first person on my ignore list. Dickerman will be the second and that is certainly no loss, it is said that if you put his brain in a blender, you would not have enough to run a frog. The ignore list is a fine feature.

I guess it's OK to have an "ignore" list, but why miss out on all the fun??

(It once took me 18 months to get an M71 Winchester .450 Alaskan rebore job back from the old A & M Rifle Company of Prescott, AZ. But they did the work, and the results wee suoerb....Of course, the rifle was not worth anywhere near $5K)

If it was my (yours) kurtz 250-3000 or my prewar 70 in 250-3000, I'd be in the truck headed out of town to pick it up. I'd keep my receipts and log my time and mileage. Take some shells to check and see if he actually fixed it.

Pick up the rifle, may be a good idea to have a sheriff join you on the visit. Tell the guy where to go and come home. Then figure out what you were out to go retrieve your property and determine if it is enough to file against him in small claims court, only you can determine that.

But if the guy's health is failing you don't want him dying on you before you get your rifle back and you end up trying to prove it's yours in probate court, that could get expensive in a hurry.

I forgot, on the slim chance that he can't produce the rifle, that would be a good time to followup with the sheriff if any laws were broken and where to go from there.

RJS

True funny story. Not funny Ha Ha, funny weird.

We had a guy post about sending an AK to a smith in Ohio on the Calguns board. He was told by the smith that it would be back in a week. Three weeks goes by with no answers to his emails or phone messages. The gun owner is furious and outs the guy on the Calguns website.

One of the other board members finds a newspaper article from the gunsmith's hometown, the gunsmith had been found dead in a ditch six miles from home last week.

Sometimes stuff happens.