I am just checking in with our resident experts to see what they feel would be a fair cost to take a user supplied barreled action, and remove the exixsing barrel, chamber a new (owner supplied) barrel, thread it and fit it to the action. It is a Sako 75 action, and a Krieger barrel in 7mm caliner to be chambered in 280 AI. The price quote I have gotten from the smith who has all the components (and has had for 3 years --another story) seems very high.

Thanks for any feedback--Don

about 1/2 of what kobe charges me

I've had ITD do a couple and was happy.
http://itdcustomgun.com/_wsn/page4.html

Prices vary from smith to smith and region to region.

Here you can get an extremely competent 'smith to do them for as low as $125, or you can pay another good man $100 more than that. (The $125 fellow IS quite competent. He has set close to a dozen national records with his own guns, and a few years back built all the rifles for another country's national Palma Team.) He is also the 'smith used by Otto (O.K.) Weber to do much of his barreling work for his customers.

Perhaps the fellow you have been talking with does not yet have the reamer? If so, it is customary to charge the customer half the price of the reamer, and for the 'smith to keep the reamer after the job is done. That charge for the reamer is added on top of the regular fitting and chambering labour. A really good custom reamer can run upward of $150 these days.

Just make sure you find a competent smith. Nothing worse then sending something off and getting back an expensive club.

three years? I'd have had a tire iron therapy session with him in a third of that. Go get your stuff and take your lantern. Go like Diogenes; in search of an hones man. Post his name here, so the rest of us can avoid him like the plague.

Rich

Interesting that you advocate violence against this smith for taking so long to complete a transaction, and yet stand indignantly in support of some else doing the exact same thing in another thread.

25 years ago, the ACGG was being formed. The "charter" members were stumblers who happened to be at a certain NRA show that year.

Yeah...I'm one of them! The point is that there was not one damn criteria for this alledged "band of experts"

WTF is this I asked and suggested a "professional" strata...even went through the "Roberts rules of order BS" and surprise! was voted down by the stumbler part timer, retired, disabled hobbyists looking for a tax write off.

As of this writing it's still exacly the same!....but...there is a least an ethics entity. You have a problem with a Guild member, you have a listening post. All the charged member has to do at a last resort is resign.....end of "handle"

But at least it's SOMETHING. Fact is..it's about the only "something" the customer has...deal with an ACGG member and you have at least this slippery "handle"

If Forrest B chooses to chime in, he may tell how the ethics entity helped send a sizeable refund his direction...

Duane, I agree about dealing with ACGG members. I've found them to be honest, and, for the most part, quite competent and reasonably prompt on their promised delivery.

However I have a question: your post seemed to indicate that a part-timer could join the Guild as a full member, but I was told that only full-timers could be full members and part-timers could only be 'associate' members or some such. I spoke with David Christman about this and he said that there was some sort of internal controversy about this very thing, even today.

At any rate I'd sure like to receive the magazine but can't afford $150/yr for only a subscription as an 'associate'. I can understand why full-timers could come to resent us old retired part-timers for taking some of their business, and so not allow us to have full membership benefits. However if the work of the part-timer is up-to-snuff and passes the judging panel's critical eye, then why not?
Regards, Joe

quote:

What is a fair price to thread/chamber/fit a barrel

please understand that some smiths routinely polish the barrel and some take quite a bit of work.

They also crown the muzzle and stamp the cartridge on the barrel and sometimes in beautiful script.

There may also be reasons the barrel must be "keyed" or oriented to allow previous stamping to show or be hidden and sometimes to return iron sights to the top.

Some smiths use a reamer with integral throating and others do the throating separately and to match customer specs.
The question seems straight forward but there's a lot more to it that wasn't asked!

Remington barrels require counterboring and some CRF actions require an extractor cut.

I don't think anyone really answered the original question. I get $185 labor for fitting a barrel to a suitable action. Add $20 if an extractor cut needs to be added. If it is a wildcat or needs some other special work, POR.

Jim

I am a part timer; I take a day off now and then

I charge $230 which includes squaring the front ring, lapping lugs and re-bluing. Extractor cuts add $40.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
.. I get $185 labor for fitting a barrel to a suitable action,... If it is a wildcat or needs some other special work, POR.

Why does a wildcat cost more to chamber?
eg; If the customer supplied all the required reamers, would you charge more to do a wildcat 6mm/06 over say a std. 30/06?

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Why does a wildcat cost more to chamber?
eg; If the customer supplied all the required reamers, would you charge more to do a wildcat 6mm/06 over say a std. 30/06?

I test fire all the chambers I cut. Where would I get SAFE ammo to use for test firing a 6mm/06? Dummy ammo to insure feeding? Dies, brass & bullets, powder, primers, could be sent to the smith. Not sure how many smiths would shoot a customers hand loads. Kind of like asking a stranger to drive your kids to school. In most cases it wouldn't be a problem, but if there were a problem it could be devastating. It takes time to track down all the paraphernalia to build the wildcat in the smith's shop and this time needs to be paid for by someone. Nez pas?

When shopping around for barreling prices, there's a world of difference between just a thread & chamber job and getting a rifle back that's ready to hunt after it's been switched to a new, wild, or improved cartridge.

For a customer supplied barrel, I charge $65 plus the actual cost of any thread tape or lock washers if required.

As to the topic at hand, you general get what you pay for. As stated before if you just want a tube screwed on to a Remington action, many guys can do it well and cheap.

If you need something a bit more involved, it makes sense to pay someone what they are worth for the the skill required to do the job right.

CAS, thank you for the strong endorsement.

Trying to drum up as much business as I can for you!

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
.. I get $185 labor for fitting a barrel to a suitable action,... If it is a wildcat or needs some other special work, POR.

Why does a wildcat cost more to chamber?
eg; If the customer supplied all the required reamers, would you charge more to do a wildcat 6mm/06 over say a std. 30/06?

That is usually the kicker, the reamer. Why buy a reamer and only use it once?

Perhaps another way to phrase the question would be to ask, "How long does it take you to rebarrel a Mauser 1898 with a floated barrel? How long for an original octagon high wall Winchester?"

I can assure you that the time difference is SUBSTANTIAL! Actually about double or more in my experience. Then consider all the variables in between these 2 extremes such as coned breeches, stepped breeches, safety breeches, odd-shaped extractor cuts, wildcat cartridges, ribbed barrels, etc and you can soon see that each job must be judged on its own requirements.

IMO the average customer really has only one good criterion for choosing a good smith, and that's reputation. If the customer is expert enough to actually be able to judge the smith's knowledge and expertise for himself, why then he'd probably be able to do the actual work himself, right?

So give the job to a Guild member or a known smith with an established reputation, not somebody your wife's cousin or brother-in-law knows. Pretend you're choosing a doctor to do brain surgery on your favorite child, IOW ask lots of clients about him and ask him lots of questions.
Regards, Joe

Well said JD.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
It is a Sako 75 action,
Thanks for any feedback--Don

Another stumbling block for some is metric threads. Not every smith has a lathe capable of cutting metric. Some others find an Inch size "close enough" and just jamb it together. Others wait for a time to borrow someone else's lathe that cuts metric. Or farm it out. Metric change gears for a South bend run around $500 if you can even find them and get used very rarely.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
For a customer supplied barrel, I charge $65 plus the actual cost of any thread tape or lock washers if required.

That's good But what about the monkey wrench marks on the barrel? File it down and call it knurling??

Fish
A lot of guys used to look up average gunsmith fees listed in Brownells catalogue. How ever a few years ago their prices seemed a little strange and I called them. I asked them if they were serious and really arrived at the fees published by a real survey of gunsmiths around the country as stated in their catalogue. And if so who in the world were they surveying.

They finally admitted that "they just didn't have the time anymore to do an actual survey." They arrived at their fees by setting around in a bull session amongst fellow "gun techs" and pencil whipping the previous years numbers.

So having said all that to say once a year I re evaluated my shop prices and tried to arrive at a fair rate for all my services and not go broke. I did a little research and found out that Gander Mountain published their fees and they seemed pretty realistic for both parties involved.

I'm not recomending anyone for re barreling but if you will look up Gander Mountain's web site you will be able to research typical gun work fees that are pretty close to the nations average as far as I can determine.

+1 That is how you should begin every year, and make sure your numbers are accurate and that you are measuring everything that you can. I'm about to be doing the same for my business.

I agree that you get what you pay for, but for a hunting rifle, you may not need the guy who does international match rifles.

Daniel,
I think most of the reputable guys on this forum chamber a barrel as carefully for a hunting rifle as a match rifle. I don't do work for the public, but chamber the same way for all rifles. It takes very little more time to indicate it to as near O as close. My setup is the same.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Daniel,
I think most of the reputable guys on this forum chamber a barrel as carefully for a hunting rifle as a match rifle. I don't do work for the public, but chamber the same way for all rifles. It takes very little more time to indicate it to as near O as close. My setup is the same.
Butch

Not to be argumentative, but I could see where a "hunting" rifle, especially a DGR, might have the chamber cut to maximumum tolerance to assure reliable feeding/chambering W/factory ammo that might vary within industry tolerances.

Kind of like full length resizing as opposed to neck sizing for the same situations.

Of course the gunsmith should be taking great care to assure that maximum feed/chambering tolerance just as he might when cutting a "target" chamber to whatever dimensions demanded by the target shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Daniel,
I think most of the reputable guys on this forum chamber a barrel as carefully for a hunting rifle as a match rifle. I don't do work for the public, but chamber the same way for all rifles. It takes very little more time to indicate it to as near O as close. My setup is the same.
Butch

Sorry,
I wasn't inferring that the smith would lower his normal level of quality. I merely meant that for a nice hunting rifle, a competent smith with a reasonable pricing should be fine, and an Uber-perfectionist world competition level, but expensive smith isn't necessary unless you are trying to compete at high levels and such.

I would hope and expect that every smith would do each job to the best of his ability, but you don't necessarily need to hire Tiger Woods to learn how to play golf. The OP seemed to be suffering from sticker shock and may well have been looking at more service/quality than he actually required. Maybe not.

I understand that Top notch work requires top notch skill and is worth top notch pay. No argument there. We don't all need top notch work done. For most of us a 1/2 moa gun would make us proud and should be readily accomplished by a custom barrel and competent smith for a reasonable price. No offense intended.

Daniel,
I'm not trying to bring you to task, but I don't see how a BR quality chamber job is any different. A loose SAAMII fit is in the size of the reamer and not the method.
Butch

I'm not trying to say that a BR quality job is any different, or that a smith would or should do a lesser job than he's capable of for $50 less. I'm saying that the guys who do bench rest quality jobs are more costly. I'm not saying that they aren't worth it, if you require that level of perfection/accuracy. If you don't need that level of quality, why pay that level of price? It's like giving a college kid a BMW, when they should have a corolla? If you have graduated and can afford and appreciate the BMW, go for it.

Though I am admittedly far from an expert on this subject, I'd bet that the equipment used is as much responsible for the end result and price as the skill of the smith. A top notch, international, benchrest level gunsmith probably has a much higher quality lathe/reamer setup than that guy who takes in guns two towns over, or the hobbyist doing it himself in his basement.

I'd sure take the top notch smith's quality level, but I'm not sure I'd pay twice as much to drop my groups down 1/5 moa. That's just me. I don't need that level, and probably couldn't do such a gun justice anyway. One day, I may get the fever to chase the 0.0" group, but for now anything below 1/2 moa tickles my fancy. I'm also at the raising young kids stage of life and would be completely guilt ridden for spending that much on my whim. In twenty years I may also not understand why anyone wouldn't go for the top of the line. For now, I'm on a beer budget. sorry for hijacking. I'm done now.

Daniel,
If you chamber in the headstock and you have good bearings in your spindle, that is all you need. The ways can be worn out and it doesn't matter. I'll bet that the majority are chambered on a Grizzly lathe. The good BR smiths that I know charge less to chamber than a good hunting rifle smith. Now that being said, a BR barrel has no sights, no extractor cuts , small cartridges, and no refinishing the exterior. 3 of the major brands have virtually the same tenon, thread, and headspace.
Guys that chamber for a variety of hunting rifles face a much bigger hurdle. If you are chambering the same thing everyday, you can get pretty quick.
The difference in group size is more the cartridge and rifle style, certainly not paying extra to have a so called BR smith do it.
I hope I didn't step on anybodies toes.
Butch
Butch

Daniel, I see what you're saying and I agree with almost all of it. The typical known-name Benchrest smith will, of necessity, have tooling that's usually considerably more expensive than the tooling of a typical general-practice smith. This greater initial capital investment translates into a higher hourly rate.

This more-expensive tooling issue affects not only the lathe and mill setup but also things like whether the reamer used is one that has a floating pilot or a solid one, whether the smith uses the through-the-headstock method as is usual with BR smiths or the steady-rest method which is MUCH faster and plenty accurate but not PC for BR smithing. Another issue is the cutting of the throat; many BR smiths have their reamers cut with no integral throat in order to cut the throat separately to suit the shooter's preference. Well, that requires more capital investment for the additional throating reamer plus increased labor time for the additional operation, when the GP smith just cuts the chamber and throat in one operation.

It's not that any smith is gouging or doing less than his best; it's more a case of a lotta little things conspiring to raise the price of doing business for the BR-type smith, when the perhaps-equally-talented GP smith can afford to work for a lesser overall rate. At least that's what I believe you meant, and I agree.
Regards, Joe

Daniel
A reputable smith puts his reputation on every job. That's how he got his reputation as a quality smith in the first place.

Now, if "Bubba with a rented reamer, chucked up in his Black&Decker drill" quality is what you'll accept, than that's what you'll pay for.

It's a LOT easier to make a egg shaped hole than it is a round one.

I know one smith that every new reamer cuts a test barrel, and has a chamber cast made, before it ever sees a customers tube. If the reamer is not to his personal specs (IE the minimum side of SAAMI), than the maker of the reamer will be getting it back.

Daniel, I think your in the minority. 9 out 10 customers coming into my shop are looking for the best work possible, not just good enough. And I have to assume that it's the same for most other shops. Even on an average bolt action hunting rifle most of my customers want a premium barrel and as much accurising as they can afford.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
Daniel
A reputable smith puts his reputation on every job. That's how he got his reputation as a quality smith in the first place.

Now, if "Bubba with a rented reamer, chucked up in his Black&Decker drill" quality is what you'll accept, than that's what you'll pay for. How did 1/2 moa or less, from a good general purpose smith is good enough for me, turn into Bubba with a B&D drill?



I know one smith that every new reamer cuts a test barrel, and has a chamber cast made, before it ever sees a customers tube. If the reamer is not to his personal specs (IE the minimum side of SAAMI), than the maker of the reamer will be getting it back. which increases his costs and thus gives him cause to be more expensive. Not everyone requires such an anal attitude towards this stuff. That is why Savage sells guns.

quote:

9 out 10 customers coming into my shop are looking for the best work possible, not just good enough.

No doubt there are customers who are seeking for the highest level of quality and price is no object just as there are people searching out an acceptable level of quality and price is also a factor. The people who value price as a factor aren't going to intentionally call the smiths that they feel are more expensive. Hence my example of the BMW vs. Toyota corolla. This is economics 101 guys. Every market has a spectrum of consumer needs and wants. Just as there may be a GS who has the reputation of being high in quality and reasonably priced, but you'll have to wait six months for the work to be done. Ever hear of the GOOD/FAST/CHEAP triangle?

J.D. Steele, thanks for understanding what I was trying to say. I didn't think basic capitalist market principles would be hard to understand or controversial. I thought it was a fairly basic answer to why different people charge varying amounts for what may seem from the outside, like the same job. Not every runner will get to the Olympics just as not every GS will build guns for the Olympics. That doesn't mean that the GS's who aren't quite to that level have no place in the market. GEEZ GUYS.

BTW, I own my own business (not a gun shop) and I do work on the higher end of the quality spectrum. I also understand that my level of quality and price are not for everyone. That doesn't make those customers wrong or mean they have no place in the market. I promise you that there are guys out there who are looking for the most affordable custom gun that they can get, or want one, but only have $XXXX.XX dollars to spend.

Having confidence in your rifle is priceless. When it's time to pull the trigger, any extra cost of the premium barrel and premium cut chamber is long forgotten and the confidence in the quality of what you're shooting helps steady your hand.

Remember guys, he's got a Krieger barrel. Why would anyone want to but a bargain priced thread & chamber on a top flight tube? If the lowest price was paramount then we'd be talking prechambered A&M or ER Shaw.

I agree that 9 out of 10 customers will SAY that they want the highest quality level possible, but it's been my actual experience that that's BS in the final financial analysis. As soon as I explain that there are only about a dozen people in the US who do that level of work and a top-accuracy 'hummer' barrel may take as many as 3 tries with 3 different barrels to achieve the absolute best accuracy possible, why then their story changes mighty quick.

All depends upon your definition of 'best' and 'top-quality'. If you're using Douglas or Shilen, are you using their stainless match 'air-gauge' barrels, or are you using their regular carbon-steel 'premium' or 'XX' grade? Hand-lapped? Bored with a taper?

Most customers of my acquaintance are not prepared to spend 2-3 years and ~$1000 or more waiting for a 'best' barrel and a 'top-quality' smith to install it. And don't fool yourself, anything less is not 'best' or 'top-quality'. Ask Tony Boyer what he pays and how many barrels he goes through before he finds a good one!
Regards, Joe

I normally charge $150 to thread and chamber a barrel that doesn't need an extractor cut. As long as the cartridge is not too "off the wall" I will buy the reamer if I don't have it. I always face the action and square the locking lugs in the action and on the bolt. I do all my chambering in the head stock. I build 1000 yard and hunting rifles the same.....Tom

Jim, Gunmaker and Tapper 2, thanks for the feedback, and others for comments as well, it's always a learning experience reading the replies...

Jim hit the nail on the head as did Tapper 2. I thought I gave enough information to get an accurate answer, honestly, the only thing I feel I may have omitted is the fact that the barrel need to be cut to length and crowned, which frankly I felt would be assumed! Talking about rebarreling High Wall winnies and mausers is just silly as it is stated what the rifle is, and I think most smiths would recognize whether or not an extractor cut is needed for this rifle and barrel.

The smith that has the gun is charging way to much based on the feedback I am getting. He already has the reamer, ans has had--it isn't special for this project, and I am just asking for something within SAMMI specs, not special to fired cases or something, although I may now given review of this info.....I am going to have to find a new smith/smith's for these projects, although there may not be one for a while with me--been unemployed for 5 months or so now with minimal prospects...uggggggh

Thanks again--Don

Dan

I'm dying to know, what is he charging?