quote:

Originally posted by srtrax:
Orginal question..."argentine mauser build or sell?"

Sell the fucking thing so we dont have to go through with this every 6 months!

What do you mean??? The new owner will get on here and do the same thing.

Good Lord, somebody please put me out of my misery! (just don't shoot me with your 1909 or you might experience set-back...and then be forced to switch positions on the matter...)

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Dear Trax:

Just a professional irritation, but it is still necessary to stop this.

"Testimony" is a term of art. It means "[e]vidence given by a competent witness under oath or affirmation; . . . " - Black's Law Dictionary, 1979.

I sincerely doubt that the opinions that you copied above were under oath.

Mr Bemis I don't know you from Adam, but if you are going to nit-pick legal definitions then consider that an opinion is "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." Trax has an opinion on setback, formed not by his statistically insignificant sample size of personal experience, (which he freely acknowledges as such, and in fact his personal experience in this case ironically runs counter to his opinion!) but on statements from a multitude of sources he deems trustworthy who have experienced this phenomenon.

However, the statements he quoted were NOT opinions, but the direct personal experiences of those who had experienced setback and relayed these experiences in a credible manner. In reading the quotes it is apparent that they had complete clarity on the issue, and the fact that they were not obtained under oath does nothing to dilute the basic truth that these personal "testimonies" relay.

Most of us form a majority of our opinions, accept certain fundamental principals as fact, and develop a word view not from direct experience or personally conducted research and verification, but from listening to and reading of the experiences of others. Very little, (approaching zero) of the information we absorb is sworn legal testimony. True enough the internet has given rise to information overload, and careful filters must be applied in order to sift through the BS for those nuggets of truth.

But if you are going to slam Trax for his opinion that 1909s are prone to setback you would do better to discredit the sources of the stories he quoted, not base your opposition on the insignificance of his personal experience. It is unfair to attack the man for having the naivety to believe and quote a some fairly experienced and credible gunsmiths from this very board. I would do no less if defending my position.

Your tactics are flawed, counselor, but I guess it is easier to pick on an anonymous internet soul who goes by "Trax" than some of the giants he quoted.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

Mr Bemis I don't know you from Adam, but if you are going to nit-pick legal definitions then consider that an opinion is "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."

Trax has an opinion on setback, formed not on his statistically insignificant sample size of personal experience, (which he freely acknowledges as such, and in fact his personal experience in this case ironically runs counter to his opinion!) but on statements from a multitude of sources he deems trustworthy who have experienced this phenomenon.

However, the statements he quoted were NOT opinions, but the direct personal experiences of those who had experienced setback and relayed these experiences in a credible manner. The fact that they were not obtained under oath does nothing to dilute the truth these personal "testimonies" relay.

Most of us form a majority of our opinions, accept certain fundamental principals as fact, and develop a word view not from direct experience or personally conducted research and verification, but from listening to and reading of the experiences of others. Very little, (approaching zero) of the information we absorb is sworn legal testimony. True enough the internet has given rise to information overload, and careful filters must be applied in order to sift through the BS for those nuggets of truth.

But if you are going to slam Trax for his opinion that 1909s are prone to setback you would do better to discredit the sources of the stories he quoted, not base your opposition on the insignificance of his personal experience. Your tactics are flawed, counselor.

It is unfair to attack the man for having the naivety to believe and quote a some fairly experienced and credible gunsmiths from this very board. I would do no less if defending my position.

As I posted earlier, I have no reason to doubt that Duane Weibe has never seen LSB in the 1909,
nor do I have reason to doubt that the other [quoted] smiths have seen or experienced LSB in the 1909.

I reasonably gather that they all base their reports on direct personal experience.
Clearly some have experienced things with a 1909 that another individual has not experienced.

Indeed my own personal 1909 .270win never suffered LSB, but it was never fed the modern high pressure loads that others have fed to their 1909.
I don't exactly know how well my 1909 faired in the orig. HT process, I can only speculate as to how it would react if fed modern high pressure loads.

I say again,... I am not silly enough to ignore more extensive & compelling empirical evidence based reports from reputable persons with much more accumulated knowledge and experience than me.

Consider me a fool, but I trust Mr. Echols and Mr.Burgess empirical evidence based accounts concerning the issue of 1909 LSB.

Tom Burgess probably witnessed,tested and worked on more 1909 actions than all the smiths on this forum put together.

A person is free to accept or not accept the findings of such [relatively] extensive broad ranging in-depth experience.

Dear Montea6B:

Terms of art such as "testimony" if misused are not nit picking to a professional, who practiced law. Believe me, I've come across a number of sloppy lawyers, who misused the term, not merely laypeople.

As I said, its a professional irritant.

Opinions: Mr. Wiebe, Mr. Echols, Mr. Grisel, Mr. Burgess, Mr. Anderson and I all have opinions on the qualities of virginal 1898 Mausers. Without empirical data, that's all they are, opinions. To date, I have no empirical data before me from anyone of the above, except my own data.

Based upon my limited experience with two different WW-I era Mauser actions, my data corresponds with Pete Grisel's, James Anderson's and Duane Weibe's opinions. So, I support their opinions, until other facts may modify my opinion.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Dear Trax:

Your experience arises from one action. That's it. That experience does not corroborate the "set back" experience others have said that they have seen.

So, you believe them, and not your own experience?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

As I said, its a professional irritant.

No sweat, I understand. We all have our professional insider jargon that the public misuses. If misuse can lead to misunderstanding I am quick to correct, but just as often I have found that it is best to let it go rather than get all Cliff Clavin on people. (I seriously doubt anybody thought Trax was referring to sworn testimony…) I can get worked up too, sorry for getting on your case.

quote:

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

I’m not sure why you think this... I believe I understand your points, and actually agree with everything you are saying. I just think it is unfair to go after Trax for choosing to take a somewhat more conservative position of recommending precautionary heat treating based on anecdotal evidence from sources he trusts.

quote:

Your experience arises from one action. That's it. That experience does not corroborate the "set back" experience others have said that they have seen. So, you believe them, and not your own experience?

Why is this such a surprise to you? With a sample size of one a person would be foolish to over value his personal experience, and wise to seek opinions and experiences from others.

I have been driving over 30 years, and have been in 5 accidents. Several of them – including a roll over – occurred when I was not wearing a seatbelt, yet I have never had the slightest injury. From my perspective seatbelts do nothing to prevent injury, yet I wear mine religiously now based on an opinion formed from hearing and reading about the experiences of others. My experience does not corroborate the “injury or death” experience that others have had, but I’m not disbelieving my own experience in choosing to wear a seatbelt. I just assessed the risk based on the weight of ALL the evidence.

It is not a matter of right versus wrong - the setback experiences described are not mutually exclusive, and I don’t have to choose which side to believe.

In other words, if Duane Wiebe says he has never seen a 1909 set back and Darcy Echols says he has, I don’t have to pick which person to believe… they are both right! The true root causes and appropriate corrective action might be a little murky and subject to speculation and lively (emotional) debate, but I don’t think anybody can deny that set back has occurred before.

From there it is simply a personal risk management decision as to whether I decide to heat treat or not when I finally build my 1909 based sporter. (Current 1909 rework experience zero, yet I have formed an opinion, and have an Argie sitting in the safe waiting to be used!)

Probability X Severity X Detectability = Risk factor... How much will it cost me, and do I think it is worth it? These are personal decisions and I would never attack a person for choosing or recommending one course of action over another.

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:

Dear Trax:

Your experience arises from one action. That's it. That experience does not corroborate the "set back" experience others have said that they have seen.

So, you believe them, and not your own experience?

My exposure/experience is rather limited.
Duane Weibes greater exposure/experience is that the 1909 units he has seen, have not suffered LSB
Others with much greater collective exposure/experience than Mr.Weibe indicate that the 1909 does suffer LSB.

I believe my own experience,
I believe Mr.Weibes broader personal experience, and
I believe the much larger collective observations and findings of those others that have witnessed 1909 LSB.

I accept the fact that experiences can genuinely differ, without the need to automatically regard or dismiss any of them as invalid.

I also believe that Mr.Selbys one & only .416 never suffered LSB, but I also believe that numerous other .416 std.M98 rifles that came back to Mr.Roberts/Rigbyshop, did in-fact suffer LSB.

If one chose to only take note of Mr.Selbys experience, one might conclude that those orig .416rigby std98 rifles don't suffer LSB.
However if one bothered to take note of Mr.Roberts accounts of other such rifles that came back to his shop with LSB, he may well indicate to a person[in hindsght], that the stdM98 based.416Rigby, was a less than brilliant idea.

Q./...Why do you give validity to the collective findings of Mr Weibe,Grisel,Anderson,..but conveniently ignore the larger collective findings of Mr.Burgess,Echols,Z1r,Leeper,Stokeld,Getzen, etc,....?

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:


It is not a matter of right versus wrong - the setback experiences described are not mutually exclusive, and I don’t have to choose which side to believe.

In other words, if Duane Wiebe says he has never seen a 1909 set back and Darcy Echols says he has, I don’t have to pick which person to believe… they are both right! The true root causes and appropriate corrective action might be a little murky and subject to speculation and lively (emotional) debate, but I don’t think anybody can deny that set back has occurred before.

...

A person could own a Ferrari & belong to a Ferrari car club in which none of those owners Ferraris ever catch fire. Those people can then truthfully say that the Ferraris in their club have never caught fire.
However there is sound empirical evidence to suggest that Ferraris do indeed have a propensity to catch fire.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...as-burst-flames.html

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/m...-self-201128669.html

http://www.motorward.com/2011/...-to-ground-in-dubai/

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/0...9-goes-up-in-flames/

http://jalopnik.com/199121/fer...ferrari-up-in-flames


However that is only the manufacturers and car owners empirical evidence based opinion, not a statement sworn under oath, so one may take the liberty to presume that they have no substance or validity.

Sometimes I see a new thread pop up on the forum and say to myself, 'just don't even open it'. Then when I see it go to page two, then three, then four I say to myself, 'I wonder what depths of depravity this thing has sunk to'. Then I open it up and read the first three posts and the last three posts and quietly close it back up. It's all so predictable.

quote:

Originally posted by Rub Line:
Sometimes I see a new thread pop up on the forum and say to myself, 'just don't even open it'. Then when I see it go to page two, then three, then four I say to myself, 'I wonder what depths of depravity this thing has sunk to'. Then I open it up and read the first three posts and the last three posts and quietly close it back up. It's all so predictable.

Yes it sure is.

It's kinda like picking a fight for no reason. You know it's going to tick people off but you do it anyway.

Actually, I am sure the original poster gave up on this one a long time ago!

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
Actually, I am sure the original poster gave up on this one a long time ago!

Relentless struggle. Although I'm not yet having sleepness nights about my 404 Jeffery on the 1909 action. By the way, the 404 J was introduced in 1909. Seems like a nice match if you can find the right riflemaker. Pick one who has never had a problem with this particular action.

I took delivery of my Winston Elrod/Tom Griffen .375 H&H two weeks ago, built on a 1909 Arg. I feel quite confident I will have no problems on my upcoming safari!

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
Actually, I am sure the original poster gave up on this one a long time ago!

The smartest one of us all... !