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need help drilling a springfield
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<k wood>
posted
Does anyone have any suggestions for drilling a springfield receiver? I can't even touch it with a cobalt drill bit. I haven't tried a carbide bit yet, but i wouldn't be able to tap it anyway if I had to use carbide. Is this receiver that hard all the way through or is it case hardened.
Any ideas would appreciated.
 
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<Powderman>
posted
Brownell's sells a special bit, used especially for this purpose. It's even stated in the catalog-"use only to break the skin on Krags and Springfields. DO NOT USE AS A NORMAL DRILL." You can find more here:

www.brownells.com

------------------
Happiness is a 200 yard bughole.

 
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<Don G>
posted
It is case hardened.

I saw in Gun Kinks?? where someone had a method of local spot heating then letting it air cool to temper it. I think they used a D cell battery with negative wire clamped to action (broad contact). Positive wire had a nail at the end to hit the spot. Heat a tiny spot red, then let it air cool.

Can't find the original directions anywhere.

Don

 
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<MC>
posted
K wood

If you are carefull you can grind a smll spot through the hard skin with a dremal tool, but the best bet is use a carbide bit.
MC

 
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<k wood>
posted
Don G, I heard about spot annealing then drilling, but not with a battery that sounds interesting. I used a 1/8" Dia rod heated red hot then held on the spot to drill, but so far it hasn't helped. I don't know much about it, so I'm a little hesitant to do too much. If by chacne you run across the details of it the battery method, pass them along. Thanks ithink I'll try brownells on monday.
 
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one of us
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K Wood,

I tried to stay out of this but sounds like all the advice is from someone who has only
read about it, no offense intended.

I've drilled and tapped a few hundred 98 Mausers and a couple dozen hard Springfields and here is what has worked for me.

After locating the exact spots you intend to drill with 400 grit paper or a small buff on a dremel tool polish these spots to approx 6 mm dia. Then install the smallest oxy/acet torch tip you can find. Ajust to a slight carbon flame. Pack some Brownells heat stop around the locking lug recesses on the front ring, rear bridge does not need any heat protection. Heat polished areas to a dark blue and continue untill black then grey and withdraw the flame, allow to cool, periodically repolish the same areas and when they will remain bright steel color when polished, go through the spectrum of heat colors again. Go through the whole process about 3 times untill you can repolish about 30 seconds after removing the heat and your blue/black colors return, indicating the correct heat to anneal has penetrated deep enough, then allow the whole thing to cool very slow.

On Springfields if you heat the receiver to anywhere near red you will air harden the metal and have difficulty ever getting it annealed.

You should be able to drill with a high speed drill now. If it drills part way then dulls, just resharpen and continue, use good cutting fluid.

Now the important part. Never ever use a high speed tap to tap any gun receiver or barrel. Always use new sharp CARBON taps. They are just as sharp as high speed. The differance is if you break off a tap you can anneal it and drill it out, or just take a punch and bust it up and pick it out. If you break a high speed tap you cannot anneal it and you will be wondering why you ever decided to do any gun work.

Another tip (see why I tried to stay out of this?). When drilling and tapping hard receivers you will have a difficult time preventing the drill from skidding and drilling off center unless you use a good jig. Same goes for tapping, unless you use a good jig the risk of breaking a tap in a hard receiver is great.

Also if the tap quits cutting switch to a new one or break the tip off the tap and regrind for new teeth to engage, if you dont youre about garunteed to break a tap.

Good Luck
Craftsman

 
Posts: 1551 | Location: North Texas | Registered: 11 February 2001Reply With Quote
<k wood>
posted
Craftsman I'm glad you got involved. That sounds like good info. I've drilled several 98's and haven't found a particularly hard one so far. I do use a jig to drill with so the alignment is not a problem. I'll still have to wait and order from brownells on monday. Have you ever used the bit they sell supposedly for this purpose? I see someone here mentioned that the springfield was case hardened, one of the guys on the brownells tech. line told me it was that hard all the way through. What do you think? One last thing I'm sure no one took any offense that's why we post here, the free exchange of ideas and info from knowlegeable people! Thanks!
 
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<Don G>
posted
I'm sure glad Craftsman spoke up.

I know the metallurgy changed several times on the springfields, depending on serial number. I can try to look up the details if you want.

I can't find the battery trick anywhere.

Don

 
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one of us
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K Wood,

Most Springfields are case hardened but due to the metalurgy/heat treatment have a very tough to drill core also.

Here is a quote on the subject from Bob Brownell in Gunsmith Kinks II. He is writing the instructions as if you had drilled the holes with a carbide bit, you can anneal for drilling and again for tapping.

"After drilling your four holes, take a piece of abrasive cloth and carefully polish bright an area somewhat smaller than a dime around each hole. With your welding torch turned to a low soft flame, heat the polished area to a blue color. Tip the torch out of the way and immediately polish the are back to a bright color and immediately re-heat the area to a blue color with your torch. Repeat the heating and polishing untill the polished area stays blue rather than staying bright as you polish. Generally it takes about 4 heatings. This turning blue as you polish with the abrasive cloth means that the metal just in that particular area has reached about 600 degrees which is enough to anneal and permit tapping. As only the small area around the hole has been heated, the overall strength and temper of the action has not been changed. And because the hole is already there, the heat will follow the hole surfaces - thus permitting the tapping operation. Bob B "

If you are able to drill part way and then the metal is too hard to proceed, here is another trick.

Get a piece of cold rolled steel about 3/4 " dia. and 6 " long, put it in your lathe and machine the tip to a slip fit dia. of the hole you're drilling. Place the tip in the hole and prop the rod up and heat the rod to cherry red then allow to slowly cool, this will safely anneal the immediate area of the hole with out affecting the rest of the receiver.

Craftsman

 
Posts: 1551 | Location: North Texas | Registered: 11 February 2001Reply With Quote
<k wood>
posted
I'm almost embarassed to say I don't have the gunsmith kinks books, I gotta get those!
I'm going to do this later in the week after I get some stuff from brownells. I hate to wait but I can't take a chance on screwing this up. This is a gun I've already fitted a new Shilen barell to and I'm anxious to see how it shoots. In the mean time I've got a ruger to re-barell. I hate to start on project before finishing another but what the hell, it's too windy to shoot this weekend anyway. I'll keep ya'll posted on the drill attempt. If anyone else has any thoughts on the subject I'd like to hear them.
 
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<Fat Bastard>
posted
This should go without saying, but it happened to me, which means there's at least one person out there who doesn't know any better:

If you plan on using a torch to anneal any part of the receiver, TAKE THE ACTION OUT OF THE STOCK!

I had a butcher, claiming to be a gunsmith, do this on a Mini-14 of mine. The moron burned the stock with the torch, then did an inexcuseably poor refinish job on the stock (including not removing all of the burned area!). Since this is fact, not rumor, I can name names in good conscience: Bob Sandoval of Las Cruces, New Mexico.

 
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<DuaneinND>
posted
I usually drill the holes with a carbide bit, and then I anneal the hole before I tap.

[This message has been edited by DuaneinND (edited 04-23-2001).]

 
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one of us
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hi k.wood
one method that no-one has mentioned is an EDM machine (electronic discharge machine) although it does not solve the problem of tapping it will solve the problem of putting accurate holes in your reciever.
the battery method mentioned earlier is a very crude EDM machine. They are extremely expensive and are used exstensively in the tooling industry.They do not have the problem of skating off your intended mark and are not affected by hardness, they will cut perfect holes without stress.
hope this helps.

Griff.

 
Posts: 1179 | Location: scotland | Registered: 28 February 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
When you break the high speed tap off in the blind hole all is not lost. Get some diamond burrs from your dentist and cut it to bits wih your Dremmil. I had a broken tap stuck in a P-17 for years before I heard about this one.
 
Posts: 813 | Location: Left Coast | Registered: 02 November 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of Robgunbuilder
posted Hide Post
Here is what has worked for me. I believe it was first reported in a Brownells Kinks book years ago. Take a piece of approx. 1 inchX 1 inch solid steel rod and grind a curved section in it to crudly match about a 1/4 inch long section of the shape of the receiver. This doesn't need to be pretty just functional. Heat it red hot with an oxy/acteylene torch, then place it carefully on the receiver bridge where you want to drill the holes. Let it cool to room temp. This will aneal the receiver just enough to let you use a HSS drill. Use a drill fixture and I do this job in a Mill. Then tap using a new carbon tap. I've done many mausers and springfields this way and once you make the tool it is a snap.-Rob
 
Posts: 6314 | Location: Las Vegas,NV | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
<John Romanowski>
posted
quote:
I've done many mausers and springfields this way and once you make the tool it is a snap.-Rob [/B]

Well I'll suggest something much simpler. Chuck the same size drill backwards in your drill press. turn it on and have it running at the speed you'd use to drill. bring the drill rod down on the spot on the reciver you want to soften. run the drill untill the end is red hot. it should take quite some time. turn everything off leaving the drill in contact with the reciver and wait un till cool. viola!! spot annealed!!! the drill should cut through 'like buttah!'

------------------
John Romanowski
Northern Arizona Armory
Home of the 'Poor Man's Magnum'

 
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<k wood>
posted
Thanks for all the advice guys. I tried to spot anneal this receiver. I had a mark on it from where I tried to drill it. I heated a small dia. (maybe 3/16) steel rod red hot and held it on the spot. I kept it red hot with intermittent application of the torch. I held it like this for a while, I didn't time it but it was several minutes, then let it cool. I still couldn't drill it. I have since got a copy of gunsmith kinks and read the part about annealing. I haven't done it yet as I'm still waiting for some stuff from brownells. If anyone else has any suggestions pass them along, I can't be the only one out here that finds this interesting.
 
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Picture of Mark
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K,

I think robgunbuilder has an excellent idea, with the ground steel block. Remember, the thing about annealing is not only getting it up to temperature, but making sure it cools as slowly as possible. If you have a torch, something you can do is preheat the receiver body, not much but even a little bit helps tremendously. A trick I use is to wipe a wet rag over the item so you get it wet, just a film. Heat until the film just disappears, and another swipe from the rag makes it vanish almost instantly, but not so hot it hisses when you swipe at it with the rag.

 
Posts: 7777 | Location: Between 2 rivers, Middle USA | Registered: 19 August 2000Reply With Quote
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Picture of Robgunbuilder
posted Hide Post
When using the ground steel block trick, I heat the block with the torch (you need oxy/acetylene,propane won't work)till its red hot then using long pliers place it on the receiver and just let it air cool till you can safely handle the receiver by hand (20 min or more). Obviously you need to do this twice for the front and rear of the receiver. A HSS #31 drill will then work like cutting butter and you can tap without worry of breaking off the tap in a still rock hard receiver. Believe me this works-Rob
 
Posts: 6314 | Location: Las Vegas,NV | Registered: 10 January 2001Reply With Quote
<kailua custom>
posted
Dear "K"- The method I have used for years without trouble is the ascertain where the holes are going and then suspend an old plumbers soldering iron[the long,straight ones with the beveled tip ] above the receiver and just let the tip touch the spot where you want to drill. Walk away and have a cup of coffee and come back later[1/2 hr]. Reposition the iron at the rear bridge and start a new one. Cover the 1st with a piece of tin or something to slow the cooling. After all are annealed, drill your holes. If, when you start tapping, you get that horrible, gut wrenching squeal, let the tip of the iron rest in the hole a little longer.[I machined a .700 rod from brass that I put in the receiver as a means of keeping cold air from the holes]This will usually soften the spot up and allow tapping. Good luck. This has worked for me for a long time.Aloha, Mark[in Ore]kailuacustom@aol.com
 
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