Anyone tried this? Thinking of a 44 mag or 41 mag ctg in a Mauser 93 (small ring) bolt action. The cases stack in the mag but only at the back, which means that they can fall out of the action once they pop free. If you stack them in the front and open up the feed rails, the follower tilts and jams. I think this calls for a spacer at the back of the mag and a custom follower and spring. Or perhaps a custom mag box or clip. I have seen a 45acp on a Mauser but I don't recall how it was done.

I read also that this requires a coned breech to support the case head, something the mauser does not have. P17 has coned breech. Or perhaps a relieved breech for the extractor, like the P14 which is chambered for a rimmed ctg (303) with a flat breech.

I suppose the easiest solution is to get a Ruger 77 already in 44 mag but afaik nobody does a 41 mag in a bolt and that is my preference.

Promag For Desert Eagle 41 Magnum Magazine. 8 Round Capacity.

That is what I would use!

I was going to do this, till Henry came out with there Big Boy Steel in 41 mag.

russ,
Rhineland arms used to make the components to convert several different military rifles to pistol cartridges. I have done several mausers to 45 acp. they had an adapter that was fitted and installed in the magazine and then it used a 1911 magazine. I found the gun worked better by fitting a spacer to the rear and using my own ejector.
I believe they still are in business and you might get ideas from their web site

quote:

and using my own ejector.

I watched a couple of youtube videos [45 acp], the ejector is a problem. Hope that yours works better.

Ok, I have done this; Cone breech won't help. Maybe a reverse cone.
In fact, I am in process on a 44 mag on a #4 Enfield now and have built 44s and 444s on 96 Swedes.
I am using a Desert Eagle mag, with an aluminum inner box to keep it in place. Or use a Rem 788 box, same thing. I have one of those I have used before. Yes a guy is selling 44 mag and 45 acp conversion kits but I never buy kits.
Or you can block off the original box with slanted ends.
Breech; just fit it close and mill an extractor slot. And I use a Springfield extractor, not a Mauser; they will jump over a rim better than a Mauser will, for single loading. I know what you are thinking; how does the short extractor work with the 96 guide rib? I don't worry about ejection reliability; if it sticks I just pick it out; not like anything is charging.
I can't reveal every secret.

Thanks guys, never ceases to amaze me how much know-how is out there.

I see Numrich has a follower/spring kit to adapt the mauser to take 222 class ctgs. I think this looks promising. Block off the back of the mag box, as I have done many times for a 250 Sav or 22-250 in that same action. The 41 mag is a bit shorter than the 222 but I think it can be made to feed. Besides I am going to try 300 grain bullets for sure (a Kurz version of the 405 Win!) which will increase the OAL. Feeding may call for a slot in the feed rail on either side at the spot where I want the rear of the ctg to release, perhaps, like the guide rail in an 1894. The feed ramp will have to be cut down to accept the nose of the fatter bullet. If the 222 follower does not work, I am out $50 and can use the parts on a different project. Then I will try the Eagle solution.

Barrel I can get from GMB. The groove is a bit tight but should work esp with cast bullets.

I was thinking 1893 action because it's shorter, lighter, and cheaper. I considered a "Destroyer" action but that might not be up to the pressure. Supposedly they are rather weak. And the mag is too narrow. The Savage 340 action in 3030 might be the simplest, as the case heads are very similar and the mag might work with less alteration.

I don't see the issue with the ejector .. case should stay clipped into the bolt face until bolt comes all the way to the rear and then it will eject as usual.

This calls for a ghost ring setup for sure. Or maybe a reflex type sight.

Single stack will be best for feeding and easiest to install; like the 788 mag I got. I even got a 5 round AK magazine; that will work too.

Amazing, no matter how arcane the question there is always know-how here on AR.

Thanks for the AK mag idea. Will try that .. 41 mag rim is fatter than 7.62x39 but if it works for the 44, it will work for the 41.

Well it took me a while but I did it! Using a Stevens 325 in 30-30 as a donor, rebarreling to 41 mag was a no brainer. Restocking was tedious as I had one of those early Stevens with the long sheet metal ejector that runs the length of the action as has a protruding wing on it. I put a boss for a conventional action screw on the back of the action. The magazine, on the other hand, was a tough nut to crack. While the top round will feed from the stock 30-30 mag (the case head is the same), the short 41 ctg jumps out of the ejection port if 2 or more ctgs are stacked in the mag. No problem, I thought, just put a spacer in the back of the mag so that when the rounds are released, the noses are already captive in the chamber. Easier said than done. Needed to make a shorter follower; needed to get a more compact spring (used one from a CZ M82 222); and then the darn ctgs don't want anything to do with that coned breech. Esp the SWC bullets. They dive under the chamber and that's it. To solve that, I added a ski-ramp under the bullet nose on the follower to point the bullets at the right angle. But now, as there is no taper on the case and the rounds are angled upward quite severely, they enter the chamber and then refuse to budge. Well you can get them to go if you wiggle them in. So the mag had to be modified to release the back end of the ctgs sooner. Finally, after hours and hours of fiddling, the mag feeds. The rifle is a sweet shooter and the stock (Richards laminated) feels great in the hand. The rear sight (forward mounted peep from Skinner) proved to be a tad low for the stock front sight; so you either have to trim that, or use a shorter front sight, or elevate that rear peep to the max.

Then I had a breakthrough: since the barrel I used is really a 405 Win barrel (.411 14 twist) I loaded up some 300 gr Hornady pointed soft points. Viola, they feed like a dream out of the stock 30-30 mag!. They won't feed out of the modified mag as they are too long for the shortened mag.

I have a new respect for engineers who design clips and followers.

So now I have 2 mags: one for your typical 41 mag swc rounds; and one for the pointy bullets.

In retrospect, I would have saved myself a lot of hours by buying a Ruger 77-44 .. but no challenge in that. I now have a BOLT ACTION 41 mag carbine that's light and handy, uses the same ammo (or at least brass and dies) as my side arm, and packs enough punch for anything we hunt around here (central Texas). Whether the 300 grain bullets will expand at the lower velocities remains to be seen. If not then perhaps a rechamber to 41 supermag is called for ..

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, I have done this; Cone breech won't help. Maybe a reverse cone.
In fact, I am in process on a 44 mag on a #4 Enfield now and have built 44s and 444s on 96 Swedes.
I am using a Desert Eagle mag, with an aluminum inner box to keep it in place. Or use a Rem 788 box, same thing. I have one of those I have used before. Yes a guy is selling 44 mag and 45 acp conversion kits but I never buy kits.
Or you can block off the original box with slanted ends.
Breech; just fit it close and mill an extractor slot. And I use a Springfield extractor, not a Mauser; they will jump over a rim better than a Mauser will, for single loading. I know what you are thinking; how does the short extractor work with the 96 guide rib? I don't worry about ejection reliability; if it sticks I just pick it out; not like anything is charging.
I can't reveal every secret.

Tom on your 444 conversion I imagine that you left the case rimmed and headspaced off the case mouth. I was thinking of doing a 444 on a Jap 99 and was thinking of using the 30-06 case blown out straight to 44 caliber. What do you think of that idea/method?

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
Thanks guys, never ceases to amaze me how much know-how is out there.

I see Numrich has a follower/spring kit to adapt the mauser to take 222 class ctgs. I think this looks promising. Block off the back of the mag box, as I have done many times for a 250 Sav or 22-250 in that same action. The 41 mag is a bit shorter than the 222 but I think it can be made to feed. Besides I am going to try 300 grain bullets for sure (a Kurz version of the 405 Win!) which will increase the OAL. Feeding may call for a slot in the feed rail on either side at the spot where I want the rear of the ctg to release, perhaps, like the guide rail in an 1894. The feed ramp will have to be cut down to accept the nose of the fatter bullet. If the 222 follower does not work, I am out $50 and can use the parts on a different project. Then I will try the Eagle solution.

Barrel I can get from GMB. The groove is a bit tight but should work esp with cast bullets.

I was thinking 1893 action because it's shorter, lighter, and cheaper. I considered a "Destroyer" action but that might not be up to the pressure. Supposedly they are rather weak. And the mag is too narrow. The Savage 340 action in 3030 might be the simplest, as the case heads are very similar and the mag might work with less alteration.

I don't see the issue with the ejector .. case should stay clipped into the bolt face until bolt comes all the way to the rear and then it will eject as usual.

This calls for a ghost ring setup for sure. Or maybe a reflex type sight.

Russ read my post here to dpcd about a 444 Marlin on a Jap Type 99 action, but using a 30-06 case instead. Maybe that might appeal to you as it is still a 44 caliber cartridge. You could leave it on the 444 case such as dpcd did.

I left the rim on; forgot what the breech looks like. My mind is filled with oddball projects. I'll dig it out and look at it.
Oh, I remember, I used a 1903 Springfield extractor. It will snap over the rim and sits into a notch for it. Rim seats on breech face.
I thought about making it rimless......but my reamer does not have a sharp cornered mouth and I didn't want to regrind it.

Just FYI I ordered a couple of 93 Mauser extractors from Gun Parts and they came with an oversize hook, looked like they were brand new. I needed one for my 7.62 x 39 I was working on.
You might try them and see if it will help
I was able to fit them to pull the smaller cartridge rather than the springfield or 98 extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I left the rim on; forgot what the breech looks like. My mind is filled with oddball projects. I'll dig it out and look at it.
Oh, I remember, I used a 1903 Springfield extractor. It will snap over the rim and sits into a notch for it. Rim seats on breech face.
I thought about making it rimless......but my reamer does not have a sharp cornered mouth and I didn't want to regrind it.

So which did it headspace off of...the case mouth of the rim?

I recall several bolt action conversions, the pre war mod. 70 or 54 were produced in 30-30. The Savage 340 in hornet and 30-30..Seems to be a reasonable conversion over the years..Head spaced on the rim. but best I recall some folks neck sized on the shoulder..Im going back to my youth on this, so Im a little vague.

I used the rim on the 444. As I said, 444 reamers are tapered at the mouth and the reamer would have to be re ground flat to make it headspace on the case mouth. Used an 03 Springfield extractor because they are made to snap over a rim if need be, unlike the Mauser which as we all know, was designed only for magazine feed. German Military doctrine did not allow soldiers to single load rifles. US and British, encouraged it.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I used the rim on the 444. As I said, 444 reamers are tapered at the mouth and the reamer would have to be re ground flat to make it headspace on the case mouth. Used an 03 Springfield extractor because they are made to snap over a rim if need be, unlike the Mauser which as we all know, was designed only for magazine feed. German Military doctrine did not allow soldiers to single load rifles. US and British, encouraged it.

So how good does it feed from the magazine? I'm considering doing a Type 99 action I have laying around. Thing is I don't have a stock right now. I think Boyd's still sell them for the Japanese rifles. Or I could pull the 260 Rem barrel on my Type 38 which is on a Boyd's stock plus it's D&T'ed for scope mounts and bolt handle turned down. How good does your Mauser shoot that round? Is it scoped?

It feeds fine, but not as smooth as if it were rimless; but I would avoid doing this if you can. I spent way too much time on it....
Bolt actions like rimless ammo, except Enfields and Siamese Mausers.
#1 and #4 Enfields actually work well for 444 and 45-70s; I do not enlarge the receiver bolt way for the rim like Navy Arms did; I turn the rims turned down a bit; they still work in any other 45-70.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It feeds fine, but not as smooth as if it were rimless; but I would avoid doing this if you can. I spent way too much time on it....
Bolt actions like rimless ammo, except Enfields and Siamese Mausers.
#1 and #4 Enfields actually work well for 444 and 45-70s; I do not enlarge the receiver bolt way for the rim like Navy Arms did; I turn the rims turned down a bit; they still work in any other 45-70.

Oh yeah the Enfield do work well because they were designed to use a rimmed cartridge.

This is why I mentioned an 06 blown out and headspace on the mouth, but I'm not keen on that setup either. I know the little problems I've encountered with the 450 Bushmaster in a Ruger rifle. Everything has to be just so so. Not the feeding though as that fed very well.

I have built several 450 BMs on mausers, both 98s and 91s; no issues; easy to make them feed and fire. The straight 30-06 is the way to go. In fact if you shoot 308s in a 30-06 you will get instant straight brass; I shot several hundred 7.62s on the M60 range from various 30-06s and one Argentine 7.65. That one leaves a little neck.

Here is one I did 2 weeks ago on a 91; I had said before that they were not suitable for a 450, but they definitely are and make very smooth working rifles.

Tom,
Any particular reason for the dogleg bolt handle on the 91 Mauser?

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I have built several 450 BMs on mausers, both 98s and 91s; no issues; easy to make them feed and fire. The straight 30-06 is the way to go. In fact if you shoot 308s in a 30-06 you will get instant straight brass; I shot several hundred 7.62s on the M60 range from various 30-06s and one Argentine 7.65. That one leaves a little neck.

Tom knew about firing 308's in the 06 to get straight cases. See no sense in it since 450 Bushmaster brass is plentiful. I didn't mention the issues and it has nothing to do with feeding. There is such a shallow headspacing ledge in the Ruger Ranch rifle that if you dare crimp too much (best to use a light taper crimp) it misses the ledge and the whole cartridge seats deeper and no boom. In fact the extractor doesn't even catch the rim because it pushes the case ahead past that ledge and doesn't give any back resistance to extractor spring to let the extractor ride over the rim. Maybe other brand rifles don't have this problem . Also the clearances are so tight on the Ruger that if your bullets are a little over .452 (I like to shoot cast) they won't chamber. Those are the issues I'm talking about. When the cartridges are loaded correctly for my rifle it feeds and shoots them lickady split!!

I don't mean you can make 450 BM brass from a 308; you can't; it is a different diameter; rebated like the 284 and the body is about .499. I just meant, for fun.
I don't crimp my 450s; never had any headspace issues.
Why the Rem 600 type bolt handle? Just to freak you out.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I don't mean you can make 450 BM brass from a 308; you can't; it is a different diameter; rebated like the 284 and the body is about .499. I just meant, for fun.
I don't crimp my 450s; never had any headspace issues.
Why the Rem 600 type bolt handle? Just to freak you out.

We blew out 308 cases to make 45 Raptor cases. I didn't think that you blew 308's out for the 450. Yes it's much bigger to the tune of .500 One of my best friends invented the 45 Raptor along with the 375 Raptor which is one hell of a cartridge.