Hi all.

I have this rather nice No.4 mk1 Lee Enfield and would love to re-chamber it to something like a 257 Roberts or a 6.5 Swede. I believe I can get hold of 7x57 Rimmed cases - a rimmed 257 Roberts perhaps? Basing a wildcat on the 30-40 would not work too well since cases are not that available to me but worth a thought.

I am looking at cartridges that are rated at 45 000 CUP (46 000 is close enough). The Swede rim is the same thickness as the 303 Brit but the smaller neck makes magazine mods necessary (not too big a deal).

What I am after is a long-range varmint rifle with medium range game capability (75gr 25 @3200fps and 125gr 25 @ 2650fps sound about right). Maybe a 25/6.5 Swede?)

Any suggestions?

No specific suggestions at this point,other than to say "If it was me, I'd make some sort of Epps cartridge on it."

That is, if I wanted a .25 caliber, I'd use .303 brass, sort of Ackley Improved (on this case, the Epps series had "improved" cartridge shoulders), and thus be able to use a standard .303 magazine and bolt head. Then I'd just neck the case down to hold .25-bore bullets.

That should eliminate almost all the modification difficulties, and not have to modify the rifle in any way that it couldn't be easily put back to .303 or modified to some other bore size if you wanted to, later.

I like the idea of a .25 Epps, or a 6.5 Epps myself. A .24 Epps or a .270 Epps would also work, I just like the .25 and .256 better for your intended use.

If and when you get it done, it would be very nice to have some loading data and the results of field use from you.

I have a 6.5x53-R which uses brass made from .303's, so if you decide to go that way, I could give you some starting load data. I haven't used mine for varmints though, so haven't worked up any truly light bullet loads, 120s, 140's, and 156's having been my choices so far..

Best wishes.....

Why not chamber in .303/25 ?. Good .303 brass is available for Forming. Dies are easy to get from CH4. I actually have a .303/22, a .303/25 and a .303/270. Of the three, the .303/25 is the best, followed by the .303/22. 10 shot groups of 5/8" at 100yds with 45gr Sierra. The .303/270 is the most disappointing, which ties in with the reports from Australia about that round.

Alberta Canuck, I was wondering whether the 6.5 twist rate would limit it's lighter and faster bullet choice? Since I have a perfectly good 303, I should really be thinking of the long-range aspect, but I know that if this project turns out well, I will use it for most of my shooting.

KimW9, I'm glad you mentioned the 303/25. Am I correct in thinking it is ballistically similar to the 250 Savage? I must say, I did think of a 303/25 Epps. I am not sure where I would find a chamber reamer but I'm sure I could lathe turn a chamber. On the other hand, 303/25 barrels can be obtained ready to mount. I'm just not too sure if it would meet my long-range requirements.

The basic problem is that the round does best in a P14 action, the pressures being run up to what the case can stand(and the magazine configured for the round)to indeed equal the 250-3000. In the SMLE and the No4, the actions are pressure limited to 35gr of Varget (ADI/Thales site). They can be quite accurate but the SMLE has to be set up very carefully to be assured of this.

Yet another problem is that there is no real consistent .303/25 reamer (No SAAMI standards). My .303/25 cases have to be trimmed to 2.185 to avoid problems with a short throat and I have to be careful with my FL die. Once you have solved all these little problems, the round is very good and fits my liking for the SMLE and No4 actions. My last test gave 2950 fps through my 1:9 twist barrel with 87gr Hornady #2530.

Thanks for that KimW9. Do you have any results for heavier bullets? (not that there is anything wrong with 2950fps for varminting at range, but I was hoping to hear 3100 - 3200. I think 2650fps for a 120gr would be good for deer).

Actually 87 grains at 2950fs is .250-3000 territory, a famous deer load.

Epps loads were intended for the P14 Enfield,
not the #4. Also don't depend on an "improved"
cartridge to prevent the action from stretching.
Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Epps loads were intended for the P14 Enfield,
not the #4. Also don't depend on an "improved"
cartridge to prevent the action from stretching.
Good luck!

Since he is going to be loading this for his own use, it does not really matter what Ellwood was chambering HIS in.

The cartridge will work nicely in a No. 4 Mk. 1 with fewer problems than most conversions. It can provide power in accord with however he wishes to load it. As he will basically have to handload it anyway if it is necked smaller than .30, any competent handloader should be able to handle that chore safely. And, the No. 4 is perfectly capable of handling 7.62 NATO pressures, so there is no reason it can't handle what we have been speaking of.

quote:

Originally posted by KimW9:
My .303/25 cases have to be trimmed to 2.185" ...

That's actually pretty normal ... the 303/25 was not just "a 303 necked down", it was shortened a bit as well. In a SMLE the 303/25 is pretty much a 250Savage equivalent ... in a No4 is should give a little better, in a P14 its a 257Roberts +P equivalent with a 90gr touching on 3200fps.

It's a fun cartridge but you may find your pushing it a bit expecting 120gr at 2650fps ... the 303/25 in a SMLE was also refered to as the "25 Hornet" because its 100gr was factory loaded to be around 2650fps ... just like the Hornet's 45gr loading.
Cheers...
Con

It seems that Epps didn't know what he was saying when he gave the warning.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
It seems that Epps didn't know what he was saying when he gave the warning.
Good Luck!

Ellwood knew who and why he was warning. We may be talking a bit of apples and oranges here.

Mr. Epps was making and selling wildcat rifles to handloaders whose handloading safety practices he mostly he didn't know from those of Adam.

This user we are chatting with, on the other hand, is making a rifle for his own use. He also appears to have the good sense to be cautious, to work up his loads, and to not overstrain his rifle.

So, what we are telling him about is a cartridge case which will work well through his action, which the .25 Epps will. It is up to the reloader to determine what pressures it will be operated at, and to stay within safe limits. Even a .25-20 would be a bomb if filled chock-a-block with Bullseye.....

Epps set up Winchester High Wall varmint rifles in .22/303 and .25/303, they were seen from time to time in the Northeast, good reputation, but have not seen or heard of one in decades. Do have a Savage 99C rebarreled, 26", to .257 Roberts, marked "Epps Sporting Goods 71 Clinton". Was Elwood Epps himself still working in 1971 in Clinton, Ontario?