Fellows, I’m in need of a gunsmith that can remedy erratic ignition issues I’m having with my 404J. Doesn’t happen often, but I can’t afford to have it happen ever. The action was converted to cock on open before I received it, and I would guess that that is the issue, although when it was a 375H&H it never happened. I’m in the Houston area, and would prefer to drive the rifle to someplace in Texas for service, but will ship if need be. Any recommendations on fellows that are familiar with the problems I’m having?

Thanks!

As I always say, cock on closing ain't broken, and most cock on opening conversions don't increase the firing pin fall beyond the primary extraction cam. Which is not enough, so they install a stronger mainspring to compensate, which doesn't always work. The correct way is to make a deeper cocking cam and increase the FP fall but that is 800% harder to do than just installing a COC FP assembly and call it good. Those were invented for lazy Americans who don't want to train on their equipment. Not referring to anyone on AR of course.
If yours worked in another caliber, then it is your ammo; primers are harder, or headspace is more, or your spring got weaker. Or broken firing pin.
Anyway, good luck. You probably don't want to hear my solution to the problem.

I’m open to any solution. Not at all opposed to COC assembly. Have one on a 30-06. Just need someone to fix it. Shoots Hornady brass loads fine. Others can be spotty. I want it to shoot whatever I feed it.

Kind sir:
First of all, I am not in the same league as DPCD, having only gunsmithed for 35 years.

If your rifle shoots Hornady ammo reliably but not others, I suspect there may be an issue of insufficient headspace with the other cartridges. This is easy to check, can be done at home, and costs nothing.

First, remove the firing pin assembly from the bolt. That way the bolt can be closed with zero pressure from the mainspring and you can feel the resistance with which it closes on a cartridge. It also prevents unwanted holes in the wall. Chamber a Hornady cartridge and note the resistance when the bolt is closed. Repeat with cartridges that have spotty ignition. If the bolt closes with slight resistance or contact you can feel with the Hornady rounds but closes freely on the other cartridges, those cartridges are too short in the headspace dimension. You can determine the amount of headspace between a cartridge case and the chamber by applying Scotch tape to the cartridge head, one layer at a time, until the bolt closes with firm contact. Scotch tape is about .002" thick and the number of layers of tape you apply will indicate the amount of free space or headspace between your cartridge and the chamber.

The fact that the rifle fires reliably with one make of brass/cartridge but not another indicates there is nothing wrong with your cock-on-opening conversion and that the fault lies with the ammunition.

Hope this helps.

Roger

Or the other ammo has harder primers....as I mentioned.
Now, I do know that RA has been gusnmithing for far longer that that; he is just being modest.
I would listen to him.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Or the other ammo has harder primers....as I mentioned.
Now, I do know that RA has been gusnmithing for far longer that that; he is just being modest.
I would listen to him.

Jeez, how freakin' old is he? Bill

Thanks for the help! I’m on it

RA is just 46 but we get started on careers early back in the hills.

Check firing pin protrusion also. What is correct on a 17?
I found it, Max protrusion .075, minimum .050.

Any good gunsmith should be able to fix that problem, but without gun in hand its guess and by gosh!

I had the same issue on both Enfields that I had converted to cock-on open. Which I regret! I should have left as designed, as I did the bolt dog leg and safety!

Here's how I solved the two issues:

1) 404J - Inconsistent ignition. I use Norma brass (very tight factory primer pockets) and CCI primers (probably the hardest primer). I believe the combo of the tight pocket and hard primer was causing the primer to be pushed slightly in by firing process. I solved this by uniforming of the primer pockets with a carbide tool. 100% success.

2) 35 Whelen - no grouping - massive 3-5 inch spread with CCI primer in Hornady brass. 100% ignition, though. Switched to Federal primers (much softer), everything else the same in the load, <1/2" group. 100% success.

Now, I am doing some new loads on my 404J (430 gr SPs) and will be moving to Fed primers at the same time. Will test and reload current loads (380 gr SP and 430 FPS) with Feds to make sure there is no change there and then switch over.

BUT, staying cock on close would have avoided all of these issues.

Like dcpd I'm a little cautious with the COC conversions. I do minimum headspace (with a gage, of course) Firing pin protrustion at what I THINK is recommended MAX @ .065.

The Springs furnished are usually just a bit long...which is good. I've made a speial tool to install the spring that JUST fits. Maybe trim the sring, or shim as needed.

Of course, all paets to move freely and polished.

Never had a misfire and certainly cocks easily, a boon to those that can and will cock from a shoulder mounted rifle

I know I have said at least 800 times, cock on closing ain't broken; in fact, it is a superior system. But those lazy Americans do not listen and insist on this drop in modification which does not reliably work. I give up.

Dustin Mounts or Gordy's in Houston. I met a young smith at Gordy's who built his own 450-400. This should be much less complicated. Bob

The 404 Jeffery hardly has any shoulder. This has been a problem for me with my 35 Whelens. I had lots of squibs, hangfires, in a M1903, M98, and a Ruger #1 in 35 Whelen.

The first thing I did was size my 35 Whelen cases such that there was zero headspace. Removing the firing pin mechanism, the case shoulders were set such that the bolt very slightly crushed the case in the chamber. The next thing I did was to use Federal primers, which are the most sensitive primers on the market. I also installed new mainsprings, and extra power Wolf mainsprings. For both the M98 and M1903, I went through boxes of firing pins and picked the ones that had the most protrusion. Ball powders do not ignite as easily as stick powders, so I don't use ball powders in the 35 Whelen.

The primary problem with the Ruger #1 was firing pin offset. I sent the rifle back to Ruger and was told it was within "factory" specifications, but I told the gunsmith what I had done with my ammunition, and that the thing was still misfiring. Thankfully he did something, which raised the breech block enough to center the firing pin hit in the primer. Cartridge ignition is now reliable.

Looking at the 375 H&H, you have this stout belt to resist the firing pin blow, and perhaps with a marginal ignition system, that is why you did not have ignition problems. But you went to a case with shallow shoulders,(which is not very rigid), and now you are having ignition problems. Firstly, I would go back to cock on closing as I believe the firing pin impact energy would go up. My M1917's have plenty of ignition power, and I have not changed the ignition system.

Also, how off center are the firing pin impacts? The further from center, the more energy it takes to have reliable ignition, until such offset, where the primer no go bangie.






Historically, the American shooting community embraced the narcissism of the US Army Ordnance Department. Read books and articles of the period, what was expressed was that all the products of the Ordnance Bureau were the best that ever was, and best that ever will be. The M1903 was the standard, and any deviation from the M1903 was considered a detraction. I read lots and lots of articles gushing over the M903 cock on opening, and how that feature made the M1903 so superior to cock on closing actions. It is hard to resist not making your rifle "better" when the highest authorities are singing the praises of cock on opening.

However, the M1917 ignition system was designed to deliver a specific amount of energy, and I am sure, the cock on opening "short" systems reduced that energy.



Actually, I don't disagree with a gas block on the bolt sleeve, as long as it stays in place!

I’ve often wondered - why do people convert cock on closing rifles to cock on opening?

The pics show Hornady brass that fires correctly vs BB custom loads that did not fire. The 2nd pic shows Hornady vs BB custom loads that did fire. Definitely smaller indention into the primer. Firing pin appears to be centered. Is the light strike a result of sloppy headspace or erratic strike? That is an issue. The rifle will NOT close completely on a Go gauge. Almost, but not quite. It will close over 5 layers of tape on the bottom of the cartridge. ???

Either way, I called Dustin Mounts, and he is not now working on bolt actions. He did refer me to an associate in Colorado though. I took the rifle to Gordy and Sons. The ‘smith I met with s a young man but s very familiar with the action. He is in the process will of building a 404 J for himself using a Remington 30 Express

Glad the Gordy route worked. I sure don't like to ship gins out unless I really need to. Bob

404 Jeffery are not known to have any issues with headspacing due to the case shoulder angle being shallow. I have never had any issues with my Mauser using Parker Hale and Kynoch (Berdan primed) factory ammo or reloads with these cases and RWS cases. I regularly anneal my cases for reloading so they would be quite soft in the neck and shoulder area for the first few firings after annealing and again have never had any misfiring issues.

Looking at the cases in the second image the OP has posted I see the primers quite flattened on the BB cases suggesting that these cartridges had excess headspace and on firing, the primers have backed out slightly only to be seated and flattened as the case head and protruding primers have been forced back onto the bolt face as pressure has built to maximum.

The firing pin blow does look light in the first image of the BB cartridges that have misfired, primers seem to be seated normally, so again confirming excess headspace with the BB cartridges is likely the culprit.

I suggest whoever is custom loading the BB cased cartridges is oversizing the cases or possibly pushing the case shoulders back slightly by over crimping when seating the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Flipper Dude:
Is the light strike a result of sloppy headspace or erratic strike? That is an issue. The rifle will NOT close completely on a Go gauge. Almost, but not quite. It will close over 5 layers of tape on the bottom of the cartridge. ???

From this alone I deduce that the cases that don't fire are sized too short.

Reamed a bunch of primer pockets too deep, like 0.005 to 0.007 inch. Took the ammunition to a 600 yard midrange match, and the ammunition would not fire in my M70. Firing pin protrusion too shallow, though, you would think a primer dent this deep would cause the case to fire.



Took the same ammunition to a 100 yard reduced match and shot it in a M1a. Every dented round when bangie.

Tolerance stack up.

SlamFire,

Thank you for posting the Clark shield, I have one of those and often wondered who made them and when.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
SlamFire,

Thank you for posting the Clark shield, I have one of those and often wondered who made them and when.

Glad it helped. By looking at ads, we can see that shooters began to recognize the safety limitations of these old actions, and wanted features that would protect them. The M1913 and M1917 actions have almost no shooter protection features against gas release. Of the pre 1900 actions, I can think only that the 1898 action has excellent gas handling features, and is a very "safe" action. The rest will blow brass, powder particles, and hot gas directly in to your shooting eye. The M1903 and M1917 follows this trend. So did the pre 64 M70, gas will roll right down the left receiver rail, right into your eye. That was fixed when FN extended the bolt shroud to block gas coming down the left receiver rail.

trigger overtravel too tight?

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
SlamFire,

Thank you for posting the Clark shield, I have one of those and often wondered who made them and when.

Glad it helped. By looking at ads, we can see that shooters began to recognize the safety limitations of these old actions, and wanted features that would protect them. The M1913 and M1917 actions have almost no shooter protection features against gas release. Of the pre 1900 actions, I can think only that the 1898 action has excellent gas handling features, and is a very "safe" action. The rest will blow brass, powder particles, and hot gas directly in to your shooting eye. The M1903 and M1917 follows this trend. So did the pre 64 M70, gas will roll right down the left receiver rail, right into your eye. That was fixed when FN extended the bolt shroud to block gas coming down the left receiver rail.

What about the Rem. M30 and 720?

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I know I have said at least 800 times, cock on closing ain't broken; in fact, it is a superior system. But those lazy Americans do not listen and insist on this drop in modification which does not reliably work. I give up.

Superior or not...If you're not use to it...it's awkward My wife gave me an oiled raincoat from
Ireland. Damn buttons were on the wrong side..Got too fat to wear it...problem solved!

Turn the rain coat inside out---the buttons will now be on the correct side!

The cratered primers are a concern.

Check the firing tip diameter vs the hole diameter in the bolt
May have a P14 firing pin ( smaller diameter ) in a 1917 bolt ( larger hole )

Also may have a weak or ( dragging inside ) mainspring, or a bent firing pin which could cause the cratering

Or as suggested head-space and back thrust can cause it as well

James Wisner

Appreciate all the good replies. Gives us a list to start checking off. The gunsmith’s initial response after quick once over was that the ammo was incorrect, but he is to check all components.

Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by Hipshoot:
Turn the rain coat inside out---the buttons will now be on the correct side!

HAR...What about the pockets?

quote:

Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
What about the Rem. M30 and 720?

From Stuart Otteson's book :The Bolt Action,

both the M30 and M720 have an identical comment:

Weak Points:

1. Springfield (1903) breech and gas handling.

Which basically mean, gases will go straight down the firing pin shaft, through the cocking piece, and into your eye. Also gas will travel down the left receiver rail, and into your eye.

I can say, having had pierced primers in New Haven M70's, wear your shooting glasses. I had gas released into the firing pin shaft that blew grease onto the lens of my shooting glasses. The M70 also has the m1903 cone breech, and it does not block gas that gets into the bolt. So gas goes down the bolt shaft, right into your eye!

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
..... wear your shooting glasses. .... So gas goes down the bolt shaft, right into your eye!

That's almost as bad as getting hazed at horse whispering camp.

I converted my P14 to cock on opening and reduced the travel to 5/16. This was for a target rifle, and I wanted reduced lock time. In addition, I used a modified Remington 700 trigger (3 lever conversion with a home made trigger lever).
On the other P14, I left it as COC and like it fine.
I have a Remington Model 30 on which someone had installed a Dayton-Traister kit. I'll know how it works when I get around to building the rifle on it. In my dream world, it was made into a very nice 338-06 and looked and shot great! Regards, Bill.

Out of six 1917's I have had only ONE

with a miss fire problem.

Weak main spring. Caused by the former owner

always storing it cocked. New spring cured it.

Another friend had a bolt full of hard packed shit

that wouldn't fire at all when it was cold outside.

A 'smith cleaned it out and cured that too.

The '17s are damned near fool and idiot proof.

George

George, I still have all those parts you sent me a couple of years ago, unused, if you can use them, I'll send them back to you. I sold that rifle.