Is this all bull$#!t?

MSC 4140 Made in USA barstock

Not seeing mill test certificates??

I see Woodhunter has pulled the pin on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:
What do you think the steel yield strength is of a typical military mauser?

I personally have no idea how to calculate the yield strength of a hot drop hammer forging. That was why I asked if you did.

I know how the forging changes the mechanical properties to improve strength and durability, but I don’t know how to put any math to that.

At some point, maybe 3rd year engineering classes, so pretty early on, I decided I would rather be making things than doing math, thinking about making things.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Is this all bull$#!t?

MSC 4140 Made in USA barstock

Sorry, I don’t know? I don’t know anything about MSC. I know my steel suppliers can’t find US mills that have 4140 in stock.

MSC may have the buying power to have a melt rolled to their specs.

US Made is also a vague statement. I would want to see the certifications. I’ve bought steel that was billed as “US” made, but it was only rolled in the US. I have bought steel that was billed as “US” but the material was made, they ship the material as nuggets, I don’t know the technical term, and then they are melted and rolled in the US.

For my products I research the companies I am buying from. But for tooling I have used steel from Russia, China, Czechoslovakia, and many more. . . Some of it was great. . .

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:
What do you think the steel yield strength is of a typical military mauser?

Going back to the Interlloy 1030 specs-
http://www.interlloy.com.au/ou...ht-carbon-steel-bar/

Water quenched from 850-880 Deg C.
Tempered at 540-680 Deg C.
Min. Yield strength of 420MPA = 60,915 PSI

So if it was forged, properly carburised, quenched and drawn to a lesser number, say 250 Deg.C. wouldn't that yield figure be substantially higher than 60K?

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
I personally have no idea how to calculate the yield strength of a hot drop hammer forging. That was why I asked if you did.

I know how the forging changes the mechanical properties to improve strength and durability, but I don’t know how to put any math to that.

At some point, maybe 3rd year engineering classes, so pretty early on, I decided I would rather be making things than doing math, thinking about making things.

Hot forging is claimed to increase strength by refining grain size, eliminating voids, directional toughness, grain flow and resistance to crack propagation, but it doesn't increase yield strength because worked hot and ductile creating no work hardening.

I think any grain flow advantages would probably be lost at the receiver lug abutments where it matters because they are machined after forging, cross cutting the grain flow the same as it is when machined from bar stock.

However I believe bolt lugs to bolt body forged with minimal machining to disrupt that forged the grain flow would benefit.

Tom Burgess wrote mauser receivers carbon varied from .27 to .33%, not really hardenable without adding carbon.
Kuhnhausen had a german 98 receiver analyzed and the carbon was .29%

So I think the yield for hot rolled AISI 1030 would be accurate.
About 50,000 psi.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:

Going back to the Interlloy 1030 specs-
http://www.interlloy.com.au/ou...ht-carbon-steel-bar/

3rd time, those values are for cold rolled steel that has been work hardened increasing the yield strength.

Think steel wire that is rolled through rollers compressing, work hardening and increasing the yield but not the ultimate strength.

Even if you cold rolled a receiver to shape when you heat treated it at temp it would be effectively stress relieved and lose that increased yield strength.

Read - Mechanical Qualities hardened and tempered.

So the pre quench temps are the annealing temps, so it's annealed cold rolled yeah?

Just like you say here-

Even if you cold rolled a receiver to shape when you heat treated it at temp it would be effectively stress relieved and lose that increased yield strength.[/QUOTE]

So heat treated 1030 has a minimum yield of over 60K.
If forged and properly carburised this figure would be higher again.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
So heat treated 1030 has a minimum yield of over 60K.
If forged and properly carburised this figure would be higher again.

Only you don't have 1030 with a carbon range of 0.25-0.35%.

You have 0.27-0.33% and anything less than 0.30% is considered NOT hardenable.
Yes you can get a very thin, hard layer by brine quenching which cools faster than plain water BUT risks cracking especially on complex parts with varying xsections. Like a receiver.

Hot rolled 1030 is 50,000 yield, hot rolled 1025 is 58,000 psi. Annealed cold rolled has the same values.
Take your pick.

Hot forging does not increase yield strength.

Mauser receiver cores are soft, can we FINALLY stop pretending they are hardened?

Yes carburizing the skin does increase the yield strength of the skin, but since the skin is thin, (a perimeter) it adds little to the Xsections resistance to shear.

Back at the TSJC ranch they told us Mauser steel was closer to 1330. Then, what would Ackley know about metallurgy?

How many have sent a chunk off for chemical analysis? I'm sure different dates and manufacturing plants would vary the recipe over the years.

Also heard many of the 98 actions were made with Swedish steel.

Made a bunch of actions working for Miller Arms using Swedish steel. Good stuff, but not cheap at all.

Vintage mauser service rifles non-enthusiast none in my collection. Aware that Speer warns against higher pressure handloads in model 93 and 95 mauser rifles. Load bearing components engineered for safety in other industries according to design codes however no firearms design safety standards exist so buyer beware?

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Back at the TSJC ranch they told us Mauser steel was closer to 1330. Then, what would Ackley know about metallurgy?

How many have sent a chunk off for chemical analysis? I'm sure different dates and manufacturing plants would vary the recipe over the years.

Burgess had them analyzed, he thought a 1100 series would be the closest fit.

The manganese content seems to be where it wouldn't fit in one category or another better

AISI 1330 manganese content range is 1.60 - 1..90, Burgess said mausers were from 1.15 - 1.40 and explained why the manganese was used and why the content varied.

Kuhnhausen's 1 test (page 80) showed it at 0.45, well below either.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1043/m/628102131/p/1

A good read for the faithful, halfway down the page- Fabrication Protocol.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.co...ur-protocol/?lang=en

Metal
You're really going to piss off Doug, filling his head with opinions of a respected gunmaker.

Oh crap Metal. I had to read your post again.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
A good read for the faithful

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
A good read for the faithful, halfway down the page- Fabrication Protocol.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.co...ur-protocol/?lang=en

It was.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
A good read for the faithful, halfway down the page- Fabrication Protocol.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.co...ur-protocol/?lang=en

Not much info there.
Nothing on hardness, the topic of this thread.

Nothing said about heat treatment or anything else we have discussed.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Metal
You're really going to piss off Doug, filling his head with opinions of a respected gunmaker.

I am not interested in opinions, I am interested in facts.

Opinions by well respected gunsmiths range from mauser receivers are fine as is, to every one (or almost) should be reheat treated.

I am interested in the facts and data to support those positions, not just another opinion layered on all the rest.

A&D ointment works wonders.

I think one should just buy Ruger 77 MKII's and stop worrying about old obsolete actions.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
A&D ointment works wonders.

Works wonders on everything, how's it on lug setback?

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
A good read for the faithful, halfway down the page- Fabrication Protocol.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.co...ur-protocol/?lang=en

Not much info there.
Nothing on hardness, the topic of this thread.

Nothing said about heat treatment or anything else we have discussed.

Umm, are you sure about that Doug?
Maybe read it again.

Well it said AISI 1330,,, with no documentation to back that up.

Generally, the systems made by DWM for Brazilian 1908, Argentinian 1909 and the Mauser "Standard Modell" made in Oberndorf are of exceptional quality. The use of forged Swedish steel (AISI 1330 type) with proper thermal treatment of these military "luxury" versions could only be amortized through large series made in arsenal.

Does it apply to only mausers made with Swedish steel?
Why were all the test results of Burgess and Kuhnhausen so low in manganese that they didn't even meet the minimum standard of 1330?

Then there is this.
For special executions, and for all our left-handed rifles, we use the superb FZH (Feinmechanische Zerspanungs) systems that are made with the same steel as the old Oberndorf ones.

Only when you go over the FZH's website you find this.
The reliable C35 steel of the original Mauser action is used.

C35 is not the same as 1330.
C35 Mn, 0.5-0.8
1330 Mn 1.60 - 1.90

Looks like Dorleac & Dorleac is just as befuddled or full of BS as everyone else.
&

Don't know, don't care.
You're the expert, you fill us in.
I'm done.

Here is the most rational and plausible explanation that fits the known test results.

They were made with basically, plain, low carbon steel (somewhat between 1030/1130), .27-.33 carbon, the manganese was added and varied to compensate for the negative effects of sulfur that aided machining.
The manganese wasn't added as an alloy to increase strength.

Just like Tom Burgess said.

And FZH is using C35 which is +/- AISI 1030 which is +/- what the originals oberdorfs were made from.

Sorry no magic or secret superior metallurgy, just plain, low carbon steel.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Back at the TSJC ranch they told us Mauser steel was closer to 1330.

KEY word in bold type. Pretty simple English comprehension.

Maybe Ackley wasn't a complete idiot.

He blew up a bunch of actions. There were several still around when I was in Trinidad. He was a big fan if the 98 even though other actions would take more abuse.

Wonder why????....

quote:

He blew up a bunch of actions. There were several still around when I was in Trinidad. He was a big fan if the 98 even though other actions would take more abuse.

Wonder why????...

Most likely they were plentiful, cheap and required the up most in gunsmith skill to make them a great sporting rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
KEY word in bold type. Pretty simple English comprehension.

Closer to this, closer to that, it doesn't matter because it is basically just low carbon steel and the manganese decreases, yes decreases the yield strength.

The only online value I see for 1330 annealed yield is 42,000psi. Far less than a 1/2" diameter Chinese made grade 2 bolt out of the hardware store bulk bolt bin, 57,000 psi.

Yep, think about that.
The fine gunmakers of Dorleac & Dorleac are singing the virtues of early 1900s steel with less strength than the cheapest Chinese bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Most likely they were plentiful, cheap and required the up most in gunsmith skill to make them a great sporting rifle.

I agree Mausers make a GREAT sporting rifle! Absolutely world class. Especially the DWM ones.

What is going to be around in the next 100 years? This classy rifle built on a military Mauser?
Or, the cheap chinese bolt...

What would you rather walk around with on a beautiful fall day?
7K Buck Closeup by JAMES ANDERSON, on Flickr

And..
They make great Kurz actions when done correctly!

IMG_3956 by JAMES ANDERSON, on Flickr

That was one originally made for the Chinese in mid 30s. Banner, Mauser made, Chinese emblem.

Quote Doug W.
Yep, think about that.
The fine gunmakers of Dorleac & Dorleac are singing the virtues of early 1900s steel with less strength than the cheapest Chinese bolt.
[/QUOTE]

One important point to consider before you put shit on Dorleac, he sings the virtues of the 1900s steel AFTER is goes through the PROOFHOUSE at Saint-Etienne France.
Yep, think about that.

That doesn't change the fact that the much praised steel has less strength than a chinese grade 2 bolt.



Maybe this is how they are making through proofing, after rehardening.

Mauser 98' Kurz "Best Quality Stalking Rifle"
DORLEAC & DORLEAC
Rifles

Category : C

Caliber : 6.5 Creedmoor

Best quality rifle built on a rare commercial Original Mauser 98' Kurz action made at Oberndorf before the WW1.

Before full heat-treating , the system has been fully trued, the bolt lapped and the firing pin hole bushed to a smaller diameter to withstand higher pressures.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.co...ing-rifle-2/?lang=en

Kinda left all that out in Fabrication Protocol didn't they.

How many countries used the Mauser 98 for their military?

They should have just bought a box of chinese bolts.

quote:

Originally posted by Doug W:
That doesn't change the fact that the much praised steel has less strength than a chinese grade 2 bolt.



Maybe this is how they are making through proofing, after rehardening.

Mauser 98' Kurz "Best Quality Stalking Rifle"
DORLEAC & DORLEAC
Rifles

Category : C

Caliber : 6.5 Creedmoor

Best quality rifle built on a rare commercial Original Mauser 98' Kurz action made at Oberndorf before the WW1.

Before full heat-treating , the system has been fully trued, the bolt lapped and the firing pin hole bushed to a smaller diameter to withstand higher pressures.
https://www.dorleac-dorleac.co...ing-rifle-2/?lang=en

Kinda left all that out in Fabrication Protocol didn't they.

I so knew you would come back with that.
It is an Original Kurz in 6.5 Creedmoor, "heat treated and bushed to withstand higher pressures".
Point is not all are re-hardeneded.
But no doubt you will sit in front of your computer and troll the internet looking for so called facts to back up your pointless crusade.
Maybe for some therapy you should get yourself a military Mauser, load it up and go shoot it and have some fun instead.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
Point is not all are re-hardeneded.

How do you know what D&D is doing?

If you do know, fill us in on how they test and what the criteria is for rehardening.
6.5 Creedmore max pressure is less pressure than the 270 Win.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
But no doubt you will sit in front of your computer and troll the internet looking for so called facts to back up your pointless crusade.

Not pointless, just pointing the facts that contradict all the erroneous nonsense you have posted here about metallurgy and heat treatment.

Keep going, but is going to be tough to top your claim that mauser cores are 22Rc and 90,000 psi yield.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
How many countries used the Mauser 98 for their military?

They should have just bought a box of chinese bolts.

Alternately, maybe they should have made them from Chinese grade 2 bolts.
$2.49 lb at the ranch store.

Quote Doug W.
Keep going, but is going to be tough to top your claim that mauser cores are 22Rc and 90,000 psi yield. [/QUOTE]


Woodhunter did the RC test on the Columbian Mauser, it was 22RC.

I didn't claim that Mauser cores were anything.

What I did say was IF 1030 was hardened to 22 RC (cold rolled, carburised or whatever) it would have 90,000 yield.

You said 40,000.
That is for hot rolled, annealed, dead soft.