sarco has KAR '98 small ring standard length actions, Erfurt made, quality German $74.50 each.

are these something onecan build a 7mm mauser on? are they in decent shape?

I am not a gunsmith or a mauser expert, but I have read that these rifles actions, though being a small-ring design, have large ring threads, thus making the ring thiner than normal. I won't comment on their strength, as I am not really qualified to do so. However, I once saw a very nice custom rifle that was built with one of these actions. Its was built by Gene Simillion and chambered in 270 WCF. This rifles action may have been recarburized for extra strength. If you build a 7x57 on one, I would have it recarburized, just for posterity sake, and I wouldn’t load it up hot. Don't take any of what I've said to be the absolute truth. I am not a gunsmith, just an enthusiast.

years back the older builders valued these for building lightweight sporters .270 was a popular one on these.

I have had a .284 win. on one of these for 25 yrs with no problems. If it was fine for the 8x57 it should be fine for like cartridges/pressures.

I saw one of these receivers loose at a gun show.
The receiver ring ahead of the upper locking shoulder had been caved in by an action wrench.
the receiver ring appeared to be only about .040 thick. Not much material.

I have a one built into a .257 Roberts, it's a nice light rifle

Those are the actions that get talked about here roughly once every 4-6 weeks. THere have been significant numbers of them that had the front ring stretch or even crack. If you do a couple of searches you can get the details. The production of that action ended before the war was even over. They were giving problems when brand new 90 years ago. I can't hink of too many actions I would more rather not build a rifle around than this one.

Search for 98KAR, "small ring large thread," "stretched ring," "cracked ring" and th elike

The real give away on one of these actions is looking at the receiver wall thickness over the right side out board of the extractor. It is about as thick as a Gillette Blue Blade.

wow, thanks all.

I just run some numbers of a ring of .04" thiuck at a circle of 1.20" to see what force it would hold and as in all cases I have to guess a lot as tensile strength of the receiver is not known to me but if I assume as low carbon steel at 100,000 PSI (which I consider generous) then the receiver might hold 15,000 pounds of thrust.

The .270 at 65,000 PSI will produce about 11,000 pounds of force......and this margin is not too great for my likings.....especially when the actual tensile of the receiver is more likely 65,000 in some cases.

I'd leave those receivers to 40,000 psi rounds personally.....but there's so many M24/47s out there as well as VZ-24s and other fine actions to choose from.....why buy this one?

Just a theoretical question here, so nobody get their panties in a wad... INCLUDING THE THICKNESS OF THE BARREL, isn't there as much steel (not arguing the STRENGTH of the steel) surrounding a, say 7 x 57 Kar98 (small ring, large thread) as say, a G33/40 (small ring, small thread), given that the BARREL thickness of the Kar98 will be greater than that of the G33/40 in the chamber area, due to the differences in their thread size? The external dimensions are the same. What have I missed here?

Also, as long as I'm theorizing, couldn't you cut a large thread barrel, already threaded into a Kar98 action, at the shoulder, re-bore and re-thread the barrel stub to small ring dimensions and have, functionally, a small ring, small thread Mauser action?

Again, what am I missing?

MKane160

The force inside the cartridge is trying to push the barrel off the gun and send it downrange. The threads hold the barrel to the rest of the action which then allows the force to move the bullet since the barrel isn't moving forward. This "stretching" is what affects the front ring.

I hope that is an accurate and understandable description, if not I'm sure someone else will chime in.

As far as containing the force that spreads radially, like a small bomb, small thread or large thread should not make a difference but the force here is travelling in a different direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
The force inside the cartridge is trying to push the barrel off the gun and send it downrange. The threads hold the barrel to the rest of the action which then allows the force to move the bullet since the barrel isn't moving forward. This "stretching" is what affects the front ring.

I hope that is an accurate and understandable description, if not I'm sure someone else will chime in.

As far as containing the force that spreads radially, like a small bomb, small thread or large thread should not make a difference but the force here is travelling in a different direction.

good explanation.....

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I just run some numbers of a ring of .04" thiuck at a circle of 1.20" to see what force it would hold and as in all cases I have to guess a lot as tensile strength of the receiver is not known to me but if I assume as low carbon steel at 100,000 PSI (which I consider generous) then the receiver might hold 15,000 pounds of thrust.

The .270 at 65,000 PSI will produce about 11,000 pounds of force......and this margin is not too great for my likings.....especially when the actual tensile of the receiver is more likely 65,000 in some cases.

I'd leave those receivers to 40,000 psi rounds personally.....but there's so many M24/47s out there as well as VZ-24s and other fine actions to choose from.....why buy this one?

As a professional engineer (with experience here) you can't "run some numbers" based on thin (0.040 is not a real x-section to work from, shear is NOT 100 KSI, and threads count) sections and come up with anything close to a real value for action strength. It's really silly to calculate and make decisions anything based on NO real information and values.

But hey, my company does it every day

quote:

As a professional engineer (with experience here) you can't "run some numbers" based on thin (0.040 is not a real x-section to work from, shear is NOT 100 KSI, and threads count) sections and come up with anything close to a real value for action strength. It's really silly to calculate and make decisions anything based on NO real information and values.

"Engineering estimates" are way of life for some engineers. As in horse shoes, hand grenades and nuclear weapons close can count.

quote:

"Engineering estimates" are way of life for some engineers. As in horse shoes, hand grenades and nuclear weapons close can count.

But with rifle actions and sex we engineers tend to error on the safer side of "close".

does anyone know of a complete list of small ring, small thread military actions?

Aside from the G33/40, I can think of a few other small-ring 98's.

Specifically the Mexican 1910 and the Kar98a. the Kar98a is large-thread. What about the Mexican actions?

Thanks, Mark, that does clear it up for me....

MKane160

The 1903 Springfield is a small ring Mauser
crossed with a Krag.
The thin section over the extractor is what lets go in the smal ring Mauser when a case fails.
The longitudinal force on the threads is due to the action recoiling and pushing on the barrel.
Good luck!

Does the 03 Springfield have the same footprint as a small ring Mauser, i.e., will the Springfield fit a stock inletted for the small ring Mauser?

MKane160

Very little adjustment is required to fit a mauser 93 into a Springfield. Forty years ago barreled 93 were around $15, and 03 stocks $3.
A few of my friends put them together. actuall
not too bad a rough sporter.(good old days)
Take Care!
as an after thought all the"experts" that say the 03 was a copy of the 98 are full of it.

Hawkins, it was a close enough copy of the Mauser that the U.S. Gov't paid a royalty to Mauser on the production of each on till the war. Thats a fact.

True about the royalty, fut the fact is it was on the patent for the clip.
If you list the differences between a mauser 93 and a 98, none appear in the 03 springfield.
Good Luck!

third lug?

quote:

If you list the differences between a mauser 93 and a 98, none appear in the 03 springfield.

Cock on opening added
Round bottom bolt face deleted
Square bottom slot for bolt face in receiver deleted
Stud removed from the front of the sear
Milled cut for stud clearance removed from bolt body.
Bolt sleeve lock added
Extractor removal notch deleted on bolt nose
Extractor rotated to the bottom of the bolt body to remove

The cock on opening came from the Krag.
None of the gas handling features of the 98 appear on the Springfield 03.
It is a tad late for this argument, but the
03 is a small ring "Mauser".
Good Luck!

No one said the Springfield was a large ring
but I provided a significant list of items that changed from the 93 to the 98. Those items are included on the 1903 and you did not counter them.
And the US did pay Mauser a royalty.
Many of the things changed on the 1903 to avoid making it a more direct copy of a Mauser made it a poorer design.
Two piece firing pin
High bridge for the 3rd lug
The magazine cut off

As I mentioned ; the royalty payment was for the clip.
Good luck!