Hi all,

I have an old German Single Shot bolt action rifle made by Ed Kettner. It appears to be a "Rook Rifle", fairly small and lightweight with a split rear receiver bridge, double set triggers, extended/sculpted tangs, with some Germanic type carving behind the cheekpiece. The carving is of a fox/dog hunting birds. I've made a chamber cast from it and can't identify the cartridge and was wondering if anyone else might have information on it. I'd also be interested in titles of books that may be helpful in identifying cartridges, particularly old German Cartridges. I have Ken Waters Cartridge Conversion book as well as Cartridges of the World.

I don't have the casting with me to measure but from memory here are some dimensions. It's 1.6" long, with a .525 diameter rim that is .080 thick. Just in front of the rim the cartridge is .435 diameter and tapers down in the syle of the old coke bottles (no sharp shoulder) it tapers down to .300 diameter at the neck and the neck is fairly long I'd guess about .3-.375", it's 6.5 caliber from my measurements of the casting, barrel has whitworth rifling.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Shane Thompson

No German/European cartridge specialists out there? I'd be grateful for any help even tips on where I can find the information myself. I've pretty much exhausted all of my sources, including, books, internet and knowledgeable friends.

Thanks,
Shane

Might try asking here:

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/index.php

Or try the German Gun Collector's Assoc.:

GGCA

I looked thru some really old stuff I have here and came up with this. Your OAL converts to 41mm. I found a reference to a metric called a 6.5x41R.

It's listed here http://www.ecra.info/main.php?main_cat=9&sub_cat=108 as the 6.5x41R Hunting. Also listed are its' various AKAs/Aliases.

Hope this helps.

In the new Cartridges of the World under 6.5x40Rmm there is a statement "The Germans used a number of similarly shaped cartridges in varying calibers and lengths with a case of similar design. All were black powder cartridges and while one or two made the transition to smokeless powder, most were discontinued after WWI or before1930." Hope that helps. roger

Thanks guys, I haven't come up with anything close yet so I will check these cartridges out. In my Handloaders manual of Cartridge Conversion book, the closest thing is the 6.5 x 40r Sauer and it's not even close because it's a straight wall case. My COTW book is older and doesn't show anything close either.

Really appreciate the leads,
Shane Thompson

Let us know if/when you get it figured out.

Do you have a picture of the proof markings on the rifle?

Triggertate,

I have an email in to GGCA to see if they know anything about the cartridge but haven't heard back yet.

I thought we were onto something with the 6.5 x 40 or 41 but it doesn't look like it. I searched the internet last night and found pictures of both cartridges (but no drawings) and the 6.5 x 41mm is a straighter body with a much sharper shoulder. I really thought the 6.5 x 40mm was going to be it judging from the picture. It looked like it had the thicker rim and the body shape is very similiar. The case I have doesn't taper quite as sharply from the base to the neck but nearly as much. I dug out my Cartridges of the World book and found the case. Apparently I have looked at this case before and just discounted it because if you go to the spec section at the end of the chapter it says the body is .395 in front of the rim and mine is .435".

During my search to find brass to use to form cases I referred to this case spec. section in COTW and looked for cases with .080 rim thickness and aprox .525 rim diameter. When you get into this thick of rim, the body diamter in front of the rim is too large to work with, typically something like aprox. .500".

I've just about accepted the fact that I will have to make brass for this if I want to shoot it. I'll have to make a reamer from the dimensions of the chamber cast and cut a sizing die but I really would like to make it go bang. I'm still curious to know what the cartridge is regardless of ever finding brass for it.

Stu C,
I'll post some pictures in the next couple of days of the rifle, proof marks, chamber cast, and my partially completed brass.

Shane Thompson

It does sound like a 6,5x40R to me. Unfortunately CotW is notoriously inaccurate with dimensions; Dixon's "European Sporting Cartridges" is much better in scope and accuracy though it's now out of print and difficult to find.

Dixon has two pages that reference the 6,5x40R, one under Sauer cartridges and one under Tesching cartridges, though both refer to the same round.

Here's the Sauer page entry:

"6,5x40R Sauer - The 6,5x40R G Tesching calibre is sometimes referred to as a Sauer type, but this is probably due to its shape and no catalog reference confirms this."

And here's the Tesching entry:

"6,5x40R 'G' Tesching aka 6,5x40G / 6,5x40R Roth / 6,5x40R Sauer - This calibre is sometimes called a Sauer mainly due to its tapered appearance but no catalogs list it as a Sauer type. Listed in the 1910 Roth catalog (case #741 c1906) and RWS/Utendorffer catalogs from c1908 to 1928. A relatively common calibre existing with the RWS 'N' headstamp as well as 'H.Utendorffer Nurnberg'. "

Dixon lists the metric cartridge dimensions as:

bullet 6,30
case 40.01
rim 11.40
base 10.20
neck 7.37

rim thickness unspecified.

These numbers are a bit small at the base for your reported chamber cast figures, but of course the chamber will be larger than the nominal cartridge dimensions, particularly in the rim diameter, not to mention the enormous variation in German chambers of the time anyway.

If I were making cases for your rifle I'd start with a .30-30 family case and either shim or peen the rim forward to get the headspace right. Sounds like it will make a cool .25-20-like plinker; good on 'ya for getting it shooting again!

Steve Meyer
GGCA

Steve,

Thanks for the info, particularly the metric specs for the case. You've got me thinking about maybe using 30-30, or 303 British as I originally planned, to make cases from. We have some pretty serious press equipment where I work so maybe I will have to play with making dies and pressing the brass into the shape/size I need.

I'll get it shooting whether I lathe turn the brass or press it into shape. It will make a fun little plinker.

Thanks,
Shane Thompson

posted this in the cartridge collectors forum as well...

Ok - this is just a "might be" or "might not be either " answer...

Based on the rim , base and case length data supplied it might be a 6.8x42R Tesching.

This was made only by G. Roth and shown in their ca.1910.

Case dimensions suggest the parent for this cartridge was the 6.5x54R Mannlicher.

Cant promise that right but best I can do... hope it helps.

Just for grins, some base and rim measurements from actual brass:

.30-30 .415 .495 (Winchester brand)
9,3x72R .425 .485 (RWS brand)
.303 Savage .438 .500 (Winchester brand)
.303 British .448 .525 (Winchester brand)

Between re-reading your initial post and muzza's reply I think I may have misunderstood your description of the shape of the case. If it is not a straight-taper case, but as you describe a round-shouldered 'coke bottle', it's probably one of the many other Tesching (meaning basically rook rifle) cartridges.

The 6,8x42R as muzza mentions is a possibility though it's base diameter as shown in Dixon is a bit too large. Another candidate is the 6,8x37R which has the further appeal in that it has a 'raised base' type rim which would account for the .080" rim thickness your cast shows. Both are 'coke bottle' shaped.

Here are the figures from Dixon:

6,8x42R
base 11.45
rim 13.35
normal flat rim, thickness unspecified

6,8x37R
base 10.7
rim 12.4
raised base rim, thickness unspecified

I'd love to see that cast. Rifle too!

Well I've had a lot of fun with this the last couple of days. I've solved a few mysteries and found some others. The bore dia. is .2585", still unsure of the exact groove diameter. I see the barrel is marked 7,38 which to me means 7mm caliber and 38 mm long? I haven't put a bunch of time into figuring out the exact caliber but It definitely inscribes rifling on a 6.5 bullet. I pushed one through prior to firing. I've now fired a couple of rounds through it and will soon proceed to make up 40 rounds or so.

I also found that the .525 rim diameter is too large and trimmed it down to about .500" until the extracter will slip over the rim without too much trouble. I had to trim the case to about 1.450" to keep it from crimping the mouth of the case on the chamber throat area.

Before I went to the trouble of making a reamer I thought I would try to fab a single round using a 2" piece of stub barrel for a die. I machined a piece of brass into a straightwall case .435" dia., with a .045 wall thickness. Then tapered the outside to get the correct neck thickness of .015". I reamed a .300" dia bore through my barrel stub and then cut a couple different tapers in each end. I used a bit of moly lube and the tailstock to push the brass into my make shift die and it turned out pretty good.....surprisingly.



The case I made next to a 218 Bee and a .264 cal. 130 grain cast bullet.


The case after firing the first round through this rifle in who knows how many years!


Caliber designation on bottom of barrel?


Proof marks.


and finally a few pics of the rifle, the pictures don't do it justice. The inletting on hte rifle is spectacular, and metalwork is also excellent throughout. It's very near a "best quality" rifle.





Still curious on the caliber. I can't believe it would be a 7mm with only .300" diameter neck. It would also have .013" deep rifling, considering the bore is .2585. I'll have to put a bit more time into checking groove diameter.

What do the guys in the know think after getting some more information and seeing the proofs?

Thanks,
Shane Thompson

Shane, did you post this over at Double Guns or Nitro Express ?



.

Why do so many European rifles have all kinds of proof marks, etc., but so often not a plainly marked caliber designation?

Bruce

From Macks "cartridge case measuirements"
A 7.5x38 Tesching has rim= .511, base= .433
shoulder=.426, length=1.36, bullet .303.
Could be the markings on the rifle are correct.
Beautiful rifle by the way, you are lucky.
Take care!

JD,

No I haven't posted it anywhere but here and on the cartridge forum. I probably should to reach an even broader audience/knowledge base.

Hawkins,

Those dimensions you give are almost spot on except for the shoulder measurement on mine is cose to .400", of course it's difficult to measure in an exact spot because there isn't a definite shoulder transition. The other area that disproves the .303 caliber and possible even the 7mm is the fact that the front of the neck is .301 and it tapers back to .310" just before the shoulder transition. This would leave no brass to hold the .303 bullet and very little to hold a 7mm bullet, only .008" per side up front and .013 at the back of the neck.

Thank you it is a beautiful rifle. I should post a picture of the cocking cam on the bolt and it's mating surface on the striker/firing pin. It fits so closely you can barely see a line. Another unique feature is for bolt disassembly on the front end you just turn the bolt face 90 degrees and slide it forward, the extracter is dovetailed into this forward section of the bolt and it slides to the rear for disassembly. It's a solid but "no tool" disassembly.

Shane Thompson

I measured a couple of 9.3x72 Norma cases and they match the base exactly, except for your listed rim depth. I'm betting that it is a round based on the 9.3x72, as this is true of most German cottage guns of the period. It is likely just chambered a little deep. You might try sizing a shortened 9.3x72 to fit, fireforming and just neck sizing for reloads.

Also, the 7,38 is a European measurement, with the comma meaning the same as our period does, so its meaning is 7.38. This is normally stamped on german guns as the bore diameter; for instance many 8mm rifles will be stamped 7.7 or thereabouts. The actual groove diameter is then larger by around 0.3 mm. This wouldn't fit at all with a 6.5mm bullet engraving the rifling. It would be very close to the bore for a 30 caliber.

Found this one;
7x38 Tesching, Rim=.511, Head= .433, Shoulder= .426, Neck= .307, length=1.5,
bullet .284.
It looks like they made quite a few on the same case. The germans had dozens of these
very similar cartridges.
Good luck!

Very cool rifle! A couple of observations:

The first German proof law came into effect in 1892 or so with B (preliminary) U (final) and G (rifled) marks. Between 1892 and 1912, always given that there are exceptions, the only caliber marking that was required was the gauge of the reamed but unrifled barrel, gauge being in the same sense as a 12 gauge, the number of lead balls of that diameter to a pound. The number 278 is in exactly the spot the gauge mark should be and it so happens that 278 gauge translates very close to .257". The S-in-a-lozenge, by the way, shows that the barrel was made by Schilling.

The unusual mark is the 7,38 on the other flat. My guess is that this was the gunsmith's attempt to provide a clue to the chambering. It does turn out that there is the 7x38R Tesching as hawkins found above and it has the thick raised-base rim. Here are the other dimensions in Dixon:

Base 11.0
Rim 13.0
Neck 7.92
Bullet 7.21
Dates c1879 - c1930

Remember there were no standards for cartridge dimensions in those days so there's likely to be some variance! Don't take those figures as gospel, particularly in nominal bullet diameter.

I do think we have it nailed. And great work, by the way, in making that case from scratch!

I appreciate the help and info everyone!

I'm sure starting to lean towards that 7 x 38R Tesching cartridge. My next step will be to make the reamer and dies so I can "mass produce"........lol!! some brass for it. Once I get the dies made I think I can make a single brass in 10-15 minutes so it won't be too terrible of a task. If I get more confidence in believing the 7 x 38R then I may even set up and engrave the cartridge headstamp. A little crazy I know but it may keep some poor soul from going through this again in a hundred years. Anybody have a picture of an orignal headstamp with this caliber marking?

Any ideas on what the 2. is underneath the guage designation?

thanks,
Shane Thompson

I had a similar, although nowhere near the quality, rifle in the shop last year. The ammo looked identical to yours. It had a few cartridges with it, they were made from 45-70 brass, shortened, necked down, and the rim trimmed. There might be a standard shell that can be formed to size instead of making from billet. I found, and have since lost, the name of a fellow who filled me in on details of the rifle, and the cartridge. I think he belonged to the German Rifle Collector's Society or something like that.

Google brought up German gun Collector association. looks like a bunch of great contacts.
Good luck!

Mike in Mich and Hawkins,

I've been in touch with the GGCA, in fact bpsteve that has been posting some great info is THE man on this stuff from what I understand. Another member has been helping me on via email and he just put me onto a great site that I believe I had already visited but couldn't get any good informatin from. Turns out I was a click away from great information. It's has all the cartridge dimensions in metrics but with todays calculators that's no problem or you can multiply their numbers by .03937 to get the decimal equvalent of millimeters. The site is 6.5x48R SAUER/MUNICION.org, then go to the bottom of the page and click on web map, then you can click on a caliber size family and then click on individual cartridges to get the dimensions.

Thanks,
Shane Thompson

Just thought I would give an update before this thread got too outdated.

I got in touch with a couple of very knowledgeable people from the GGCA and they worked on this and really helped me out. The cartridge is a 7 x 38R, one of many cartridges in this family with slight case and caliber differences. It has a rim that has been bumped forward to give the .080" thickness. This information came from W.B. Dixon's book "European Sporting Cartridges, Vol.1".

It's funny after all of this coming full circle the caliber is marked on the rifle all along (7,38), it threw everyone off because they weren't usually marked like this during this era (110-115 years ago).

I,ve fired the rifle a half dozen times or so with the case I made. I'm now experimenting with bullet weights to make it shoot to the sights.

It was a fun journey,
Shane Thompson