A previous thread on bolt handles got into what is (or isn't) a fair price. This got me wondering what everyone charges / feels is fair for "normal" work - such things a bolt handles, re-barreling, scope mounting, etc... just the usual type work. It is accepted that specialty work such as checkering, drastic modification or restoration, etc... is a different matter.
Anyway, using the Brownell's pricing survey as a guide bolt welding & forging go from $65 to $75 and $90 respectively for instance and hourly rates are listed as $40/ man hour & $50 for machine work. What's you rate or what you would consider fair if you're paying?

I just picked up my FN Mauser that I had rebarreled and the labor charge was $150 which included reaming the chamber (start to finish,ie not a short chambered barrel) cut and crown and install and set headspace. I think this is pretty much the going rate in the midwestern U.S. I also had the barreled action then sent to another person and he teflon coated it and charged $100 for this.

This subject brings up some correspondance I had with Brownell employees a couple of years ago.

Their price "survey" went up dramatically in all areas. Some of it was so high at the time that it was way above fees being charged by some large shops that had been in business for a long time.

Naturally if my fees were too low I wanted to adjust but at the same time I certainly don't want to "gouge" anyone. So I contacted Brownells and asked them about their method of surveying shops to base their figures on. How they selected which concerns to survey. Did they take into consideration local economy, geographics, etc. I don't have their letter in front of me but basically what they said was they had not had time to do a real survey as in the past. They had a meeting with their gun techs and just "kicked" around what they thought appropriate fees "should" be.In other words they just pencil whipped it. And that they planned to do a real survey for 2006 catalogue. As for myself, I never received any kind of survey or questionaire.

I quit using any of Brownells figures. I did my own canvasing of several large shops and some smaller ones in my own geographical area, also taking into consideration the local economy. After arriving at a sesible average of fees I found that it mirrored Gander Mountain gunsmith fees pretty close.

quote:

Originally posted by oupa:
A previous thread on bolt handles got into what is (or isn't) a fair price. This got me wondering what everyone charges / feels is fair for "normal" work - such things a bolt handles, re-barreling, scope mounting, etc... just the usual type work. It is accepted that specialty work such as checkering, drastic modification or restoration, etc... is a different matter.
Anyway, using the Brownell's pricing survey as a guide bolt welding & forging go from $65 to $75 and $90 respectively for instance and hourly rates are listed as $40/ man hour & $50 for machine work. What's you rate or what you would consider fair if you're paying?

For me, I base my prices on what my customers drive up in. If it's newer and nicer than what I drive I go for the throat. If it's less than what I drive, I figure they are trying to hide something and I charge accordingly. Just kidding!

My gunsmith quoted me $65/hr for his time and that included setup time as base rate.

Those are his base rates though. Somethings just kind of depend on the job he's tackling.

TOUGH subject. All the gunmakers in the ACGG that I know throw this around A LOT. I don't know any gunmakers I've talked with in the U.S. that have it figured yet. We all change up our rates to try to stay in the business but still get the bill payin' done. I personaly don't know any rich gunmakers. Lots of famous ones, but they have paid dearly for their fame. There was an article in the GUNMAKER, the ACGG publication, by Steve Heilmann first of the year. He mentioned taking his shop prices to $75/hr. His idea was, he will then only be working on things that pay, and it will keep the back-log down. He also stated that if the full-time gunmakers kept their prices up (still less than an attourney, electrician, or automotive garage) that the new blood getting into the business might be able to start off at $35-$45 an hour and be able to stand the strain of building a name for awhile. Can't do it at $15/hr. Running a business requires too many other things besides bench time. The guys that will take the effort to do a time study are always amazed at how few billable hours they are able to charge out per day...a real eye opener.

I went to $75/hr the first of the year to give some of the theories a try. I figured I would lose many customers and they would have to look for gunmakers charging less, plus I was in need of some way to thin the back-log and get some work done. I think it will have an affect eventually, but I've been surprised by the number of customers remaining, and I still am working on the jobs that were in here quoted out at the old prices. There will always be good work out there for less than I can do it for. There are a lot of makers who work part-time or are already retired and build guns because they finally can. These people will never raise their prices to the level I have mine at, they don't NEED to, so it will always be possible to find excellent work for less, it is just a matter of locating it.

I apologize for being so long-winded!!
Jim

Not a smith, but I have to wonder what your client base is vs your pricing scale.
Are you drowning in work from 2.5mil/year corperate execs? Or is your customer base in a area where unemployment is rampent and a high paying (skilled trade) job pays $10/hour? Or is your client base somewhere in the middle?

My client base runs the whole range, big corporate guy to small time McDonald's employee. This was one of the hardest things I had to do when I started, and still do. How much to charge? I have increased my hourly rate over the past years and am still up to my ass in aligators. There is a theory out there in the business world, If you are too busy to handle the workload effectively, raise your prices. It didn't help, maybe I didn't raise them enough.

Jim

Tailgunner,

I am not a gunsmith but I have had work done from the simple repair to commissioning a full blown custom. So I am going to chime in a little. I hope it is considered helpful and adds some perspective from a clients point of view.

I am one of Jim's customers and I can assure you I am far from a corporate executive. In fact I am what's caled by my company a "Senior Data Analyst". Senior because of time with the company. Prior to that I served in the Army as an officer. I think Jim's prices reflect his quality of work and skill. Might I be able to find work near equal for less? Perhaps and on the other hand I may end up with ruined metal work that needs to be fixed or must be scrapped. Fixing bad metal work or scrapping it can get real exspensive real quick. I work too hard for my money to take those kinds of risks with a full blown custom.

Other jobs like the simple repair are easier and less risky and yes they go out to local gunsmiths or I tinker with them myself. You have to ask yourself what does the job entail and what are the cost implications associated with screwing it up.

I look at it as my local gunsmith is like my General Care Practicioner and Jim is like a specialist.

Part of the problem with billable hours is that billable hours are only those hours you spend actually on the customers job. The time you spent discussion the job and bidding the job (which includes researching the parts needed and the cost to assemble them, or estimate their manufactur if not available) takes a lot of time. And there is no guarantee you will get the job even after you send the estimate. Then once the job is taken there are the phone calls to firm things up and the phone calls to check on status every few months. These calls can take up quite a bit of time. Then there is the other shop time that's not billable: paying bills, ordering supplies (for jobs, and in general), taking care of the books, paying employees, figuring employment taxes for your employees, etc, etc, etc. You can easily spend 6 hours a day just taking care of the day to day stuff in running you buisiness. Some things can be deligated while others can't. Your billable hour rate must be enought to cover all the non-billiable stuff required to run the shop and still feed the family at the end of the day.

My wife is a Veterinarian and has her own clinic. She started it up about 8 years ago and really just got to the point this year where she could start paying herself a decent wage. Prior to that her kennel help was being paid more. It takes a while to biuld up a client base. So I understand about billable hours. She probalby spends less than half her day actaully seeing clients.

54JNoll etal
I wasn't busting anyones chops, or trying to start a "in defense of my prices" series of replies, simply asking how shop rate vs local wage numbers worked out.
I have 2 smiths that I use, and both are well respected in their local area (both apprenticed under Bob Snapp, both have run Bobs barrel boring/rifling equipment, and one of them is the current owner of same). Both of them charge a shop rate such that a local working man can afford to own a accurate and reliable rifle, even if it dosn't wear a expensive stock.

I like Malm's idea. Charge the wealthy folks lots of money, and those that want to be thought of as wealthy lots of money, and then charge the poor folks way less.

Hey Malm, I'm poor, and I have lots of work for you.

Shop rates should be dictated by what is required to keep the shop in the black and allow the owner to live off of.

Each shop is different, each owner's needs and expectations are different. All these things must be taken into account as do things like overhead and client base.

Ultimately, if a customer is willing to pay it then it ain't overcharging is it? If you think the rate is too high, shop around. Just remember, you often get what you pay for, and more importantly, what you don't pay for.

Tailgunner,

No problem. Sorry if I came accross as argumentative.

Here is a little humor for some of the gunsmiths out there. I am sure you can relate to some of this. BTW its all true.

I gunsmith for a living. I don't have any other income. I usally start about 8am and go to least 8pm. I have been knkow to work until midnight or later when the work load is really heavy. Most of the time I work 7 days a week, I don't have any employees and I farm out very little work and that is mostly wood work and specialty finishes such as QPQ and nickel plating. I do everything else myself.

So far I haven't had an apprentice last more than 2 days, the polishing (hot and dirty)usually does them in.

Most folks don't realize why we charge what we do. A big part of the reason is taxes, about half of what I bring in goes to some form of tax - property, income, inventory, bookkeeping.
Yes, bookkeeping is a tax because it is required for the state and the IRS and every other alphabet agency wanting a dime from you!
So that leaves the other half to pay the lights, phone, some other business oriented piece of equipment, insurance, etc.

The next reason is you are paying for a skill, that is why I don't charge by the hour but by the job.I, like Mr. Kobe am swimming in alligators also even after I raised my prices 30% I assumed that would slow some of the work down but it only increased.

Now for the humor: I am sure some of you have had a day like this.

I am in my shop working and the phone is ringing off the wall, customers coming in and about that time the UPS truck shows up with a COD for 5 barrels I ordered that were supposed to come in 1 at a time - so there goes over a $1000.00 I had not planned on. Also on that truck was the gun I sent to have the QPQ finish put on. Only problem is, I have only the small parts left in the box. The barrelled action and the rug it was in are gone. After numerous phone calls and a little heated discussion, it was found at the warehouse in San Antonio. So off I go on a 3hr round trip. No way I was going to let it sit for another minuite down there! Get back to the shop and I think I'll do some bead blasting and fire up the blueing tank and blue this stuff so I'll feel like I've made some money for the day. Guess that aint gonna happen! The air compressor died right in the middle of my work venture. Right now I'm thinking I'm being punished fo some transgression and also wondering if there is enough Crown Royal to make this better. Just then in walks a fellow and asks what the charge is to fit chamber & crowm his Lilja barrel to his Rem. action. I tell him $225 and he then proceeds to tell me he only charges $100. HE uses his buddies lathe and borrows the reamers from some other friend. Guess what he asked for next! Never a dull moment around here.

Dear Tip,
Sounds like one of MY days! Had a guy come in with an EBay special barrel and a beater Mauser and wanted the barrel work done. I told him it would cost 176.00 [he drove a Dodge dually] and he said he could get a reamer at the hardward and do it himself. I wished him good luck and asked him to please not test fire it anywhere around me!!

Aloha, Mark

Where`s the Scotch???

Tip,

That's how it goes around here too! Didn't know there were others out there 'enjoying' the gunmaking business like I do

Last friday was one of those. The starter switching in the back of the lathe motor started throwing blue fire when you would hit the go switch and then the power feed on the mill table just sat there and looked at me when I told it to go, setting up a barrel for fluting. Nothing. Didn't get to either project over the weekend as I had blueing lined up for those days. BUT..I made money yesterday!!! Went to work on the table feed and found out the grandson had flipped the off-on switch while he was here last thursday. It sits down on the bottom of the unit and is not visible from a standing position. Made me smile to 'fix' that so quickly...and on a monday no less!! Not smiling now...just tearing into the blue-fire breathing lathe motor. Maybe it too will turn out to be something simple. A guy can dream!

Hey Mark,
No, the genius asked if he could borrow a reamer because his buddy didn't have that caliber.
I would have shot him for the Scotch!

As an aside I have noticed that some gunsmiths have gone over to simply building rifles - completly. No general repair ect - they want to do (pardon the pun) the lock, stock and barrel. That is how they keep most everything closer to paying. I believe Charlie Sisk does it this way or he would never get anything done.

I wanted to add a couple of thoughts (not that mine are worth anything )

1. Gunsmiths that lowball their work I think hurt the overall industry. I understand that the guy first starting needs to take in a certain volume of work to stay afloat, and doesn't have the same skills he will in 10 years. At the same time he not only needs to think about the precedence he is setting for other gunsmiths in the area, but for himself. if he starts real low because he is just starting and then later trys to raise his prices he might have a harder time of it. Mixed bag I guess.

2. You often get what you pay for. Sure, some shops will checker your stock for 50 bucks, you get a 50 buck job. I learned that the hard way and realized there are a lot of guys out there that will gladly drop their rates and so too their effort and quality. Better to pay more on the front side than be disappointed on the back end and pay more to have it repaired or redone.

Tip, if I were in your shoes I can't imagine how I would have answered the guy, probably wouldn't have been real nice. I guess every gunsmith could charge those kind of low rates if they were using other guys equipment and tools, without the overhead and wear and tear to compensate for money sure goes a lot further (plus this ass probably doesn't have an FFL, probably is not doing it above board so is getting 100 cash and not doing taxes or anything else)

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I wanted to add a couple of thoughts (not that mine are worth anything )

1. Gunsmiths that lowball their work I think hurt the overall industry. I understand that the guy first starting needs to take in a certain volume of work to stay afloat, and doesn't have the same skills he will in 10 years. At the same time he not only needs to think about the precedence he is setting for other gunsmiths in the area, but for himself. if he starts real low because he is just starting and then later trys to raise his prices he might have a harder time of it. Mixed bag I guess.

2. You often get what you pay for. Sure, some shops will checker your stock for 50 bucks, you get a 50 buck job. I learned that the hard way and realized there are a lot of guys out there that will gladly drop their rates and so too their effort and quality. Better to pay more on the front side than be disappointed on the back end and pay more to have it repaired or redone.

Tip, if I were in your shoes I can't imagine how I would have answered the guy, probably wouldn't have been real nice. I guess every gunsmith could charge those kind of low rates if they were using other guys equipment and tools, without the overhead and wear and tear to compensate for money sure goes a lot further (plus this ass probably doesn't have an FFL, probably is not doing it above board so is getting 100 cash and not doing taxes or anything else)

Red

Do you mean to say that when I hire a smith they don't always provide me with their best effort? Gee, I wonder how that would work with a doctor or a lawyer or an accountant or an engineer, etc.?

Gunsmithing is a large field, no one does everything well. You need a very large customer base to survive as a general gunsmith. With general gunsmithing you need to carry a large inventory that it might take years to turn. You're better off specializing in an area of the trade and becoming the best in your choosen field. When you've reach that level the hole country becomes your customer base. You can live where ever you want as long as you have a website, telephone and a shipping service. There's one other thing about going national, local depressions don't hurt as much.

When it comes to pricing, well that up to each individual. You know what it costs to open the doors and what your overhead is each month. One thing I can advise, the firearms indurtry has one of the smallest retail margins. Opening a store front with small retail margins is deadly.

Glad this thread is going so well - so far.
As so many have said, actual price is frequently dictated by circumstance. That said the need to pay bills - often costs unseen (and unthought of) by most customers - is very real. There are a lot of illigitimate basement gunsmiths around giving bad advise and basicly working "under the table" and too many follow the leader types who believe them! I believe pricing should be realistic though. If you don't need the work be honest and turn it down rather than try to scare it away. I wouldn't shop for a bargain by-pass operation but I'd surely take my car to the guy who charges 50% less for a muffler job - specialized work vs. everyday work! Then again, even a simple job can be screwed up!

Do you think all muffler jobs are the same? I had much rather pay a top rate to the top people in their own area. I think that you can actually save money in the long run. Their experience and skill can save so much time and your money. They're probably a few very skilled part time craftsmen that will do you a very good job at a savings. I just can't afford to take a chance with my hard earned money finding these people.
No I don't do muffler work.
Butch

I'm sitting here laughing because this sounds so familiar, and I make my living as a small town quack. Retail store front, very low margin, I have to maintain a lot of expensive equipment and supplies, I'm always running late, no one cares about the last patient (that isn't a slam, that is just human nature), but does want me to spend an hour with them and charge for a 15 minute visit.

There are some differences though:

This time of year patients will bring Lois and me fresh produce, and they are put out if we don't show up once a year to hunt quail and/or ducks on their places.
Advantage - medicine

53% of my clientele are on medicare (mandated by law). There is a strict limit to what I can charge them (an amount that almost meets overhead) (mandated by law). The government only pays 70% of what little they owe (no surprise there, it is the government after all).
Advantage - gunsmithing

If you sub-specialize and make a name for yourself in the big city, you can make more money, and people fly in to see you.
Advantage - draw

My work lasts the life of a patient, at most.
Advantage - gunsmithing

Sometime my work improves the quality of a life.
Advantage - draw

If a client complains about my hunting dogs lounging around the waiting room, I can politely instruct them to leave my clinic.
Advantage - draw

People will always smoke, drink and eat. They also all have complicated and fragile genetic blue prints. And don't forget our friend, Mr. Virus.
Advantage - medicine

Jesus Christ shoots bespoke firearms.
Advantage - gunsmithing

Gunsmiths can wear loud Hawaiin print shirts and shorts at work. They only have to put on a mask, apron and long sleeves when the work gets messy and dangerous.
Advantage - draw

When the prescription runs out after a year, a patient has to come back in for a visit (mandated by the insurance company, the law in many instances and the dictates of quality medical practice).
Advantage - medicine

Customers generally look forward to visiting their gunsmith. With the exception of plastic surgeons, visiting a doctor is a zero sum game, less the fact that you are older after the visit than before.
Advantage - gunsmithing

I have never had a patient call me up after two years and ask if I was done with their suturing job yet.
Advantage - medicine

Gunsmithing requires time, expensive schooling and a difficult and low paying apprenticeship to even begin to have command of the skill set. Medicine requires more time, a lot more money and a very difficult and low paying apprenticeship to even begin to have command of the skill set. Pretty girls will have sex with a plain looking medical student. Prettier girls will have sex with a plain looking medical apprentice (resident).
Advantage - medicne

Pretty doctor's wives spend lots and lots of money.
Advantage - gunsmithing

Divorce is less common among gunsmiths, and costs less when it happens.
Advantage - draw

You can cleanly kill a charging elephant with a well made rifle. At best, a doctor will save you in that circumstance only if he runs slower than you.
Advantage - gunsmithing

LD

All I know is you guys need to get back in the shop and off the computer or you will raise the prices again!!! Tip, I will be in S.A. this weekend.... Can I borrow a reamer? LOL.
Lee.

Lee,
Only if you bring him a good Single Malt!

Boy this is great, finally a thread in which real gunsmiths actually earning a living are participating.

Jim, I can relate to things breaking down. Last week I was removing a stubborn barrel. My barrel vise is designed like the old "Locks" brand sold in the Frank Mittermeier catalogue, you know the one with one big screw. Well it's like me, getting kind of old and worn. I really rared back on the 3 foot bar that tightens the screw and the screw jumped the threads. I hit the floor. Thankfully I was not hurt, scared the crap out of my helper. So today I started repairing it by machining a new screw, 1.25" X 14" X 10 TPI, buttress thread. Tomorrow I will machine a new threaded female sleeve nut. I'm using heat treated 4140 steel. It should out last me.

Last month my air conditioning went out. I tore into the outside unit and found fire ants in the magnetic starting switch, contacts were really fried. Called all over town and could not find one. So I disassembled the old clunker and cleaned out a thounsand dead ants and cleaned and polished the contacts.

When you are the head gunsmith, book keeper, maintenance man, janitor, shipping and receiving, purchasing agent, and salesman behind the counter it hard to rack up very many billable hours.

I use to loose a lot of time waiting on the public. Now I only open to the public in the afternoons, that way I get at least a half day of something done. Another benefit on the half day is I stopped answering the phone in the AM and let the answering machine catch it. I did not realize how much productive time I was loosing by being interrupted. It has really helped. An instructor once told me the secret to being productive and taking care of the public too was to be like the doughnut shop, bake all night and sell all day.

Another gunsmith I knew had the following message on his answering machine, "Time is money and talk is cheap, leave a message at the beep."

I am screening a lot more unprofitable work out, have raised my prices, and have never advertised yet my work load still increases. There is plenty of work out there for skilled honest gunsmiths.

I'm glad to see I'm not alone!! Somehow makes one feel better to know he's not starving alone Actually if you get a look at me you'll know right away I'm not missing any meals! But...this seems a good place to cry in my beer..( Ah...remember when I could afford beer..) anyway, another story. Another breakdown that figures into your day when you are the maintainance dept. This summer my wife decided to single handedly disable every one of our vehicles. She took the head gasket out of mine (prelim. diagnosis only - haven't had the time to open it up) then the same week I get a call to tow her home, her car is down. #2 has no compression...got it apart to where I can see the manifolds but that's it so far. So we have been gettin' around in the 'last resort'..the 74 Chev with the built 454 I traded on a gun project. Fun truck!! Pass everthing on the road except a gas station. Wife comes in this am almost in tears saying the truck won't start! Borrow a rig get her to work and prepare to put in a starter (been kind of expecting the project). Going to be an all-day sucker by the time I get past the headers etc. Oh gooody!! Well guess what!?! I'm makin' money again this week! Corroded battery connections. It's time for me to buy a lotto ticket. Guess this time next week I'll lock the doors and start working on my own projects. I don't know how many millions I'm winning this week, but it will make a fine start on some new 'toys' for the shop!!

ps...I bet LD does not have to stop and fix patients vehicles....advantage-medicine

quote:

LD, What's your guarantee?
Folks usually expect a lifetimes worth with my work, the only variable being his life or mine.
SDH

If a patient follows my recommendations (and I am not a lifestyle Nazi), and takes their medicine as prescribed, 100% refund of all fees paid during their lifetime. He, he, he, that is called the fine print.

LD

quote:

ps...I bet LD does not have to stop and fix patients vehicles....advantage-medicine

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, that would be Advantage-draw .

LD

PS $75.00/hour is about what I need to keep the doors open. Regular medicine just about does that. Any profit comes from fixing moderate to major trauma. I don't pray for major horse wrecks, but I have been sorely tempted.....

PPS Will trade carpentry and combining for gun work.

I am not a gunsmith. But I have used a few, all good exoeriences. I just want to say Thanks to you guys who do what we mere mortals can't. I have a friend who does some gunsmithing he is for the most part retired now but you can still find him, hip deep in work near deer season and in the shop on opening day when he should be hunting. When I have something to my shoulder that could blow up in my face when I squeeze the trigger, I want to be confidant that my gunsmith work didn't go to the lowest bidder. Thanks Guys

quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Stratton:
...the hole country becomes your customer base.

No thanks. I have to deal with with the occasional "hole" as it is. If there's a country full of 'em ,they can stay there!

LD, why is it that my skin Dr. said if I lost 40lbs. and started walking my skin cancers will go away? My Dentist says the same thing when I go in for a checkup. My back Dr. quit saying it, just says save your money for the next time.
Mr. Dubell started running a tab on me yesterday. I think I just need to write everything down and mail it and stay off the phone.
Butch

Getting back to prices, sometimes at a trade show someone will ask for a rifle quote. When I give them the price, they ask why so much? I tell them that I might have 125 to 150 hours in the project plus materials. Then I say, in your mind, divide your annual wages by 2080. That gives them their hourly wage. I tell the to multiply that figure by 150 add the material costs and I will take that amount for the project. You can usually see the light come on in their head. Why should I take less than their hourly wage?

I tinker with guns fulltime. I do not work on cars, trucks, or AC, not even my own. If you are charging a decent shop rate, then why would you. The heating and cooling shop gets the same $70/hr that I do to work on the AC, but if they can do it in half the time it takes me to do it, then I come out $35 ahead. Plus, I get more work out the door which makes a happy customer which is worth who knows what in advertising. Now, if you are fixing the car or AC in your personal time because you enjoy it then that is a whole nuther matter, we need to take time for ourselves, but to take time away from what makes you money to fix something that someone else can fix, just don't make sense to me.

John

I've been in gasgunner's original shop. Not much wasted motion.

Tip,
You should have lent him the reamer. Heck, you should even have installed it in his built in reamer holder. Then send him to me. I would give you a "token of my gratitude". Sewing up a hemorroidectomy done by the four flute method is quite profitable. Don't forget to use a reamer with grooves for the cooling fluid.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
I've been in gasgunner's original shop. Not much wasted motion.


LD

OK, now you got my curiosity up. I didn't think anyone knew me over here on this forum. I can't think of anyone I know from Idaho, how about a clue?

John

quote:

OK, now you got my curiosity up. I didn't think anyone knew me over here on this forum. I can't think of anyone I know from Idaho, how about a clue?

I used to drive by or through C*****k pretty often when I lived in Illinois. John Nafzigger used to farm five miles south and one mile east of your location. He and I used to fly together at the Air Guard base in Springfield, and I was an emergency room doc in Peoria. I lived in Tremont in the early 1990's.

A few years ago I gave my service rifle to my youngest Godson. I was in Illinois for a short visit in April of 2004. Stopped in and bought one of your WOA service uppers (shoots very well, thank you!) and a small basket of parts. Spent that evening rebuilding a couple rifles at a friend's house west of Peoria. One was for a mutual acquaintance. That guy bitched about the cost of the quality parts that I got from you. His was to be a floated barrel varmint rig. So, I then just charged him K-Y import prices. I also used a lot, I mean A LOT of J-B weld when I screwed the float tube on the nut. I believe his gas tube is secure.

I'll be sending an order for some barrels with chambering next summer. 6 AR, 6x6.8SPC, 300/.221, the usual.

John Charlie Noak

PS The t-shirt looks cool as well.

PPS Any body reading this that wants a very high quality AR for a fair (I said fair, not cheap, go to the Shotgun News for that), please PM me and I'll square you away.

Small world ain't it. I think I remember your visit. The 6mmx6.8, or 6mm WOA as we are calling it is doing very well. One of our shooters has shot several high x-count cleans with one at 600 yards.

I hope your friend does not bring the JB welded upper to me for a rebarrel.

Take care,
John