I reread the 4pg thread on the Remington triggers after disassembling one and looking it over.

G. Malmborg sent me a nice drawing I'll post of where to glass the connector to the trigger and like Jack Belk pointed out the angle to remove. I see how the angle could the comprimise the bonding between the connector and the trigger also.

I have a few questions;

1. Why didn't they make the trigger one piece the shape of the connecter included, in other words, what purpose does it serve to have the connector seperate?

2. Is the connector hardened and the trigger not?

3. Why not have the connector screwed onto the trigger solid from the front in the first place.

4. Can one remove it then drill and tap the trigger then screw the connector on from the front to make it a solid piece?

5. I don't know how reliable the glass would be, relying souly on the bond itself and nothing mechanical makes me wonder, and you'd never know if it came loose unless you removed it from the stock. Wouldn't JB Weld be much better if you couldn't screw them together?

6. Another question I have in another area is can you clip/grind a coil off the main spring under the sear to lighten the connector/sear engaugement friction to a more reasonable level? Jack said weight of pull should be about 50/50 in resistance between the main spring and the trigger return spring so I figure this is the only option if you don't smooth the surfaces?

My dad did this to one of his after he read it in an old gunsmith book and it said it was the single most effective thing you could do to the Remington trigger, I'd like some more thoughts on this before I do it to mine though. I do know that reducing the return spring too much isn't too good of idea even if the connector is fixed solid to the trigger, pins and bores etc. just aren't as smooth as the Jewells etc, so returning the trigger I figure needs a bit more persuasion.

Thanks for the help so far! Ideas, experiences or oppinions guys?



[ 03-24-2003, 11:55: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ]

I think that the idea behind the spring loaded connector was that when the trigger reaches the critical point where the connector and the sear are about to "trip", the connector can jump forward and allow the sear to drop. That prevents the two pieces getting caught right at the edge, not returning to "cocked" and not continuing to trip. I've seen that condition created on Ruger M77 triggers by shade tree trigger mechanics.
The connector appears to be through hardened and is quite hard. I've seen broken ones and from the appearance of the break, they are brittle. The trigger is also hard, I suspect that it is made with the powder metallurgery that Remington likes to use on small parts.
To permanently attach the connector to the trigger lever eliminates the failproof "trip" function I mentioned above. A lot of the early 3-lever conversions done to Remington factory 2-lever triggers were modified by gluing (epoxy?) the connector to the trigger lever. You do not want a spring loaded connector on a 2 oz. trigger. I would use an adhesive like Black Max if I wanted to make the connector fixed to the trigger.
Cutting coils is the wrong way to go. The coil spring is just a torsion bar that has been wound into a coil. When you shorten a torsion bar it requires more force to affect a certain amount of movement. The way to lower the pressure is to use a coil spring of the same number of coils but with a smaller diameter wire. (same length torsion bar)
One of the big mistakes that folks make when tinkering with Remington triggers is to reduce the spring pressure to a point BELOW the level of resistance from friction. In other words, if you still have 2.5# of friction but less spring pressure, you have a dangersous, non-repeatable trigger system. It requires a higher degree of skill to reduce friction in the trigger system that a lot of folks have. By honing the pivot holes, and improving the finish on the moving surfaces and burnishing MoS2 into the contact surfaces, one can reduce friction substantially.
It is also fun to convert them to 3-lever triggers if you have the means. Also, if you make a jig plate so that you can play with the parts OUTSIDE of the housing you can see a lot.
This is just an amateurs long-winded opinion and not a critique of the methods used by others.

Thanks Jay, I have a few questions but I have to run right now. Back later.

Jay,
Maybe sometime this summer I'll get a chance to show you my 3 lever M700 trigger adapted to a somewhat modified P14 action. This is for my 303 British "F" class match rifle (none of those limp wristed 6BRs for me!). I'm stocking this one now and plan to debut it at Calgary in May. Regards, Bill

Brent---

I have a few questions; which Jbelk put in bold type

1. Why didn't they make the trigger one piece the shape of the connector included, in other words, what purpose does it serve to have the connector separate?

It’s explained in the patent claims, but the explanation doesn’t hold water. I think they wanted to cut cost with an independent heat-treated, stamped metal, part but for some odd reason wanted their own patented trigger instead of using a tried and true system.

I’ve testified that in my opinion it was an economic decision, now I’m not so sure.

2. Is the connector hardened and the trigger not?

Yes. The connectors are very hard. The trigger is either die stamped or metal powder or something. It’s one of those mystery metals that’s neither fish nor fowl.

3. Why not have the connector screwed onto the trigger solid from the front in the first place.
4. Can one remove it then drill and tap the trigger then screw the connector on from the front to make it a solid piece?

The connector is the unique part of the design. For the trigger to be solid in 1946 it would have been a Sako.

Don’t bother trying to drill the trigger. Use the epoxy.

5. I don't know how reliable the glass would be, relying souly on the bond itself and nothing mechanical makes me wonder, and you'd never know if it came loose unless you removed it from the stock. Wouldn't JB Weld be much better if you couldn't screw them together?

You have 8Klb epoxy in tension AND in shear. As long as the back of the connector is NINETY degrees to the top surface and both parts are mechanically and chemically clean before the epoxy goes on the trigger will last nearly indefinitely. I’ve got one in a drawer somewhere that’s 30 years old and been on three rifles that were shot enough to wear out the barrels… That one was done with Conap #91 epoxy…….I still use it.

JB Weld is epoxy with putty components. There’s nothing special about it, except it impressed Paul Harvey………the guy with the Nash.

6. Another question I have in another area is can you clip/grind a coil off the main spring under the sear to lighten the connector/sear engaugement friction to a more reasonable level? Jack said weight of pull should be about 50/50 in resistance between the main spring and the trigger return spring so I figure this is the only option if you don't smooth the surfaces?

The sear spring has an extremely small part of the friction of the sear/connector junction. By far the most of that friction comes from the firing pin spring.

You want a light trigger or fast lock time??

My dad did this to one of his after he read it in an old gunsmith book and it said it was the single most effective thing you could do to the Remington trigger, I'd like some more thoughts on this before I do it to mine though. I do know that reducing the return spring too much isn't too good of idea even if the connector is fixed solid to the trigger, pins and bores etc. just aren't as smooth as the Jewells etc, so returning the trigger I figure needs a bit more persuasion.

Thanks for the help so far! Ideas, experiences or oppinions guys?

Just the ones stated above.

Brent,

I used acraglas on my sear some 15+ years ago and I regularly strip and clean it using some pretty rough solvents and to this day it is holding perfectly. It is normally tough to get a consistant, repeatable pull with the floating connector, but this simple little modification solves that problem.

Malm

Already done. It's solid and definately won't come off now!

It's not finnished yet but almost there. Time to get some sleep.

Now I have to take a look at that trigger of mine on the 721.

Jay,

That prevents the two pieces getting caught right at the edge, not returning to "cocked" and not continuing to trip.

To permanently attach the connector to the trigger lever eliminates the failproof "trip" function I mentioned above.

I don't understand how they would get caught at the edge, a burr maybe, can you explain more on this? I follow you on the not returning to full engaugement if you back off, but the over travel stop screw too far in would be the only reason the sear wouldn't break cleanly wouldn't it?

I agree with Jack so far, I just don't see the patent doing what they claim, as Jack said, the angle on the connector would slow the sear down if anything, not accelerate the break any. Once it's clear and broke free... it's free with nothing in the way, isn't it.

Maybe I completely misunderstood you Jay?

I did find the trigger pretty soft to drill, it's an older one from the 70's though. You can see I used the existing hole in the connector under the overtravel stop screw, that piece is super hard and does seem brittle!

Thanks for answering all my questions here guys!! You guys are all a great help!

"I don't understand how they would get caught at the edge, a burr maybe, can you explain more on this? I follow you on the not returning to full engaugement if you back off, but the over travel stop screw too far in would be the only reason the sear wouldn't break cleanly wouldn't it?"

With a solid trigger lever, as you now have, and overtravel adjusted to just about zero, you may get an "almost" tripped condition. That is what I saw on the Rugers, a long time ago. With a small amount of overtravel, this will not be a problem and we would never try to minimize overtravel to the point of creating a dangerous situation. Your "solid" trigger lever MUST have enough overtravel to allow the sear block to fully drop since there is an angled vertical surface, now, right? Or maybe I don't get the whole picture.
This discussion has caused me to consider Jewell triggers as a field rifle replacement trigger. I have 4 of them on benchrest rifles, all in the 1.5-3 oz. range. The Jewells are a cult thing and one cannot say any bad things about them or you may get excommunicated. The small amount of creep that one MIGHT notice on a BR trigger would never be observed on a trigger @ 1.5# or more.
This has been a good thread, thanks.

Ditto. I've learned more about Rem triggers here then in 30 years of tinkering. Thanks gents. - Dan

Jay,

Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't considered the slight angle hanging the sear in limbo if not ground off! If you have very little overtravel I see how it could be a serious problem. I read in this gunsmith book of my dads that you could damage the sear surfaces if you don't leave more than "just enough" clearance for the sear to drop. Any pressure between the two pieces vertical surfaces as the sear breaks could cause it to chip etc, so a little more "noticable" clearance is needed to asure there's no psi between them.

I do need to remove this one and grind the angle off on a 90 degree for less overtravel.
I will epoxy it together before it's screwed down too. This one fits perfect so I'll finish it up. If you don't get the screw hole close to "exactly" centered in the hole in the connector you'll either make the trigger effectively wider, or if it's off vertically it will put the connector in a bind as you try to put the screw in and maybe break the connector. There isn't much room for error in centering the hole using a #3 screw. I used a .077" drill bit and then a 3-50 something allen-head screw from a Rem. ramp sight to slowely and carefully tap the hole with.

I had to file the side swells it made on threading it in down flat again to fit the trigger in so it didn't rub, use a tap to thread it instead of the screw itself and you probably won't have this problem.

I still need to file the head down some because the overtravel stop screw binds up in the allen-hole a bit because of the sweeping arc the trigger makes in this location, and also for a tad more clearance to release the sear. The overtravel stop screw needs will be shortened some.

A little screwing around and it works great if you want a bit of extra insurance it won't break loose, but as GM and Jack both said, it works fine just using epoxy if done correctly. If you do just glue it on, get it on straight and flush with the top down tight on the trigger piece. Don't forget to grind the angle to 90 degrees too, or it could pop the epoxy loose!

Thanks for the suggestions on the main spring modification too, I'll just leave it alone.

Jay, my dad has a Jewell with the safety on his 700 300wsm, it's definitely nice! Takes a little getting use to the really narrow trigger though.

If I could get my Remington triggers down to 1.5 lbs "safely" I'd be pleased, but they are all between 1.8 and 3.4lb to be reliable depending on which one it is.

Take care, and thanks again!