In a discussion with Ruger today, we got to talking about the ShotShow and they mentioned some Caspian Arms titanium frames they will displaying in the the Ruger booth (right next to some M1999 castings). I asked about shrink rates and the word was "similar". Our existing mold might work just fine. One thing led to another and some wax patterns are now bound to the Prescott facility to be cast in Ti.

We know the casting is likely to be 3x in price and machining costs are probably going to take a substantial hit. For strength analysis, a couple would have to take a trip to Maryland (H.P.White) for destructive testing. The bolts would probably be 415 Stainless but first brush says a possible weight savings of 14oz - or around 32oz total for the action.

Price? A VERY preliminary guess would be 4140 action times 1.5 to 1.7 or in the $700 to $775 range.

What's the reaction out there?

I've been thinking of taking advantage of your introductory special on short actions, to build a SM rifle, but was holding back because of the weight. This sounds like it would fill the bill. Will there be an introductory special?

Recoil Rob: We're a looongg way from offering this one. If everything worked out perfect (all tooling and existing inventory fits and works), the time-line through casting, machining, (and what about heat-treating?), destructive testing is probably in excess of 6-7 months.

And then, if it did all work out, the molds are already in production. Ergo, no rational to justify a "Charter Issue". Sorry.

If it was my business I'd wait until I had all the bobbles and bugs worked out of the stainless and carbon versions first, and developed a reputation for a solid well engineered product, before venturing into territory like that.

Just my 2c

Pete M

Sounds good but if I were in the market today, anything over $700 would point me in the direction of a Model 700 titanium.

What do you suspect the long term wear characteristics would be? both mechanical wear on lugs, bolt intregrity, etc. and the stress of many firings? safety? thanks for your thoughts

Rod, I think there is obviously a martket for light-weight actions. I don't know how this would compare to other "super-lightweights" in terms of lbs and oz?? For MRC, this would be an interesting road to pursue.

Competition? Yes, it is there, but I'd worry less about the M700 in Titanium. Your real competitors in this business segment would be ULA et al. But with the right action, you might also become interesting to the segment of "light-weight" custom builders.

Sensible comment from Pete Millan of SA and Widowmaker - there is still a lot to learn. Being cautious and focussed on quality does not stop you trying this out, though. As long as quality does not suffer. I think the market is there - if smaller than the market for the regular actions - perhaps?

FWIW - mike

[ 02-04-2003, 13:30: Message edited by: mho ]

Rod,

I'm not saying a titanium M1999 makes no sense, but I don't see it as being the basis of a true lightweight rifle. At 32oz. (is this LA or SA?), you're only a quarter pound less than a BDL SA, and 7oz. less than a BDL LA. In any case, you're well short of a titanium M700 or the other ultra-light actions. If my overriding goal is light weight, I'm not going to choose even a titanium M1999. If you can make a Ti M1999 that weighs slightly less, is more accurate and just a plain nicer action than a non-Ti M700 -- and do it for a reasonable price -- then that makes the Ti M1999 a more interesting competitor to the M700, but still not a competitor to the ultra-light actions.

Why not concentrate on demonstrating the accuracy and general acceptability of the existing M1999 before tackling a Ti version that doesn't open much of a new market for you?

[ 02-05-2003, 00:56: Message edited by: InfoSponge ]

Rod---

Very interesting comments on the properties of the Ti casting. It would sure save cubic dollars if the same tooling can be used.

If the reaction to the Montana 1999 at the ACGG/FEGA show are any indication, ya'll are in far a BUSY time. When you have Jerry Fisher, Pete Grisel, Bob Snapp, Keith Heppler and another dozen or so of the best stockers and action designers in the world examining them closely and nodding in approvement you have a VERY good start at having a classic action in the making. Several makers commented on the improvements in safe design and operation smoother than a pre-war M-70.

It was a true winner at the show and I expect them to be very much in demand and pretty scarce for a long time.

Crack that whip and get busy!!! This is a GOOD action.

I handled the basic M99 long action at Jim Brockman's booth at the SCI show, and then the Jack Belk surface ground version at the Guild Show.

Jack said he had something like two and a half days of work into the "as cast" action MR sent him, and that is the unit all the "approving head nodding" was over.

My first action ships this afternoon, so I am excited at getting metal in hand after all this talking. For me titanium is not an interest because the rifles I am building need the weight anyway.

jim dodd

Hello, I expect to have a stainless rifle completed in the next 6 months using one of your actions. I would consider a ti crf in the future even if it was not as light as a ti rem 700. One thought, people who are going to appreciate the ti will likely be using blind magazines, I havent looked into the availability of trigger guards for a m70. You might make the full bottom metal optional. Keep the ideas coming, I think you are on to a good thing.
Ian

I think the market for the Montanna Ti action is probably not nearly as large as the market for the steel one. However there is no real competition for it at this point. I mean who else offers a lightweight CRF action. ULA and the Remington Ti are both push feed and while that might not matter to most, there are some who are real fans of the controlled round feeding and would much rather have that than save an ounce or two. However at this time go with something else because it saves almost a pound. However my opinion is worth just about what you paid for it.

How does the M99 compare with the pre-64 model 70 in the weight department. Will the short action M99 weigh more or less than the Winchester counterpart? /As I handeled the Montana action in reno Jack said that he did have 2+ days of work involved in the surface grinding of the rough version. Question-if you take one that is done up at the factory will it take as long to get done up as well as the one in Reno????
lb404

lb404---

How come you let that Montana get away from you at the auction??

I talked to Rod today about the polishing process and some possible options. I still haven't seen an action polished as they're being supplied to customers so I have no idea right now what it'll take to go the extra mile on a full custom job.

The action that I had in Reno is on it's way to Montana now.....until they see the one I did they don't have a way to compare either!!

We'll have to wait and see. I've already put in a vote for rough, unfinished actions being available to the trade, but if the OEM polish is good that just sweetens the pot and makes them more valuable.

Jack-I was dumb not to get this one especially since it is going to the shot show for display. This would have been a one of a kind to make something great with!!!
I lost out on the barrel too. That was real dumb!!!!!!!! I thought I was going to be able to get one of the wood sellers to GET REAL on the price of 10 higher grade blanks but no takers. I might have to go up to Preslicks and really look around and see what is available. Oh well. I am still looking for a Orberndorf Mauser commercial action to turn into a custom. Let me know if you see one that you don't want.
lb404