I have a Beretta Mato 338 win mag which has a Dakota action. Don't know if it was actually built by Dakota or by Beretta. Anyway, to uncock a firearm without dry firing I usually lift the bolt hold the trigger back and lower the bolt. This uncocks the bolt. This bolt does not uncock and dry fires when the bolt is lifted again.

My question - is this an indication of additional problems?

I have 2 other Beretta Matos which do not exhibit this problem and this is the only rifle I have ever had that does this.

I have e-mailed Beretta and Dakota but have yet to hear from them.

Doesn’t address your basic question, and not trying to be a wise ass...but what‘s the difference if you pull the trigger and release the pin or drop the bolt and release the pin? Either way the same compressed spring is driving the pin forward.

woods,get rid of that crap and buy a trustworthy rifle,like a Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Doesn’t address your basic question, and not trying to be a wise ass...but what‘s the difference if you pull the trigger and release the pin or drop the bolt and release the pin? Either way the same compressed spring is driving the pin forward.

If you drop the bolt and release the pin, the spring is released slowly and will not fire a round in the chamber. If you are just releasing the spring tension for long term storage, then dropping the bolt will release the spring without snapping the firing pin on an empty chamber (dry firing). Dry firing is generally considered not good.

quote:

woods,get rid of that crap and buy a trustworthy rifle,like a Winchester.

Get rid of a Dakota and buy a Winchester?

Something's haning up but I am not familiar with those and can't picture which part. I would certainly get it fixed. Have you tried swapping that trigger assembly to another Matto and seeing if the problem transfers with the trigger?

When lifting the bolt handle it fires. Check to see if the inside and outside of the bolt are concentric with each other. This can be done roughly with a caliper by simply measureing the four quadrants of the bolt as you look at it from the safety end with the striker assenbly removed. If it is are not concentric , the bolt will act as an ecentric cam, lifting the cocking piece up away from the trigger assembly as you close the bolt. Then when you try to open the bolt, the upward pressure of opening the bolt will hold the bolt body in the top of the action bore, once all the engaugement between striker and the sear of the trigger are gone it will fire.
1. get a new bolt that is concentric.
2. cocking piece with more sear engaugement.
Timan

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Something's haning up but I am not familiar with those and can't picture which part. I would certainly get it fixed. Have you tried swapping that trigger assembly to another Matto and seeing if the problem transfers with the trigger?

Okay, if I switch bolts with a 300 Mato I have, the 300 bolt in the 338 still has the problem. When I put the 338 bolt into the 300 action it does not do it either. So maybe there is an anomaly in the 338 trigger assembly?

Thanks for the reply Timan, but it is unlikely that both of these bolts are defective. It may still have something to do with the fit of the bolts in the action raceways?

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE PULLING MY PUD!

"
If you drop the bolt and release the pin, the spring is released slowly and will not fire a round in the chamber. If you are just releasing the spring tension for long term storage, then dropping the bolt will release the spring without snapping the firing pin on an empty chamber (dry firing). Dry firing is generally considered not good."

Are you telling me you would "SLOWLY" drop the firing pin on a loaded round in the chamber?

That is the dumbest phukking thing I have heard in years.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by woods: Dry firing is generally considered not good.

On almost all CENTER FIRE bolt rifles dry firing will not hurt anything. It's great practice. All high power shooters do this tens of thousands of times a year without damaging anything. In most cases dry firing will help burnish the sear surfaces to help smooth a trigger. The reason the people think dry firing hurts an action is because on some older 22 rimfires the firing pin travel was not restricted to the proper amount needed to ignite the primer. When dry firing these over traveling rimfires the firing pin would dent the edge of the chamber causing hard extraction. This can be repaired quickly with a chamber ironing tool. Most modern firearms rim and center fire will not have any problems with daily dry fire sessions. It's good practice!
gunmaker

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Something's haning up but I am not familiar with those and can't picture which part. I would certainly get it fixed. Have you tried swapping that trigger assembly to another Matto and seeing if the problem transfers with the trigger?

Okay, if I switch bolts with a 300 Mato I have, the 300 bolt in the 338 still has the problem. When I put the 338 bolt into the 300 action it does not do it either. So maybe there is an anomaly in the 338 trigger assembly?

Thanks for the reply Timan, but it is unlikely that both of these bolts are defective. It may still have something to do with the fit of the bolts in the action raceways?

I think the Matto is on the Dakota 97 action and I also think the Dakota 97 uses Remington pattern triggers. If so, you can remove it easily by driving the two pins out and dropping a different one in. I think you may have solved the question, though. Have you checked it well for dried lubricant or other crud? WD40 and the like has caused more trigger problems that one would think...

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

Are you telling me you would "SLOWLY" drop the firing pin on a loaded round in the chamber?


Jim

No, I am telling you that I have seen people do that. I always just use the safety. But, I do release the firing pin this way when I am storing the gun in the gun safe. That's the way I discovered it. When I took the gun out and put it in the vise, lifted the bolt and heard the snap.

There was a ranch owner out in West Texas that had 17,000 acres. His truck gun was a Remington 270 and that is the way he kept it. A loaded cartidge in the chamber and gun uncocked. All he had to do was lift the bolt and lower it again and he was ready to go. Said he felt safer knowing that the firing pin was uncocked rather than relying on the mechanics of the safety. I have known others as well.

He lived with his gun and probably would not care if you thought he was dumb or not.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Okay, if I switch bolts with a 300 Mato I have, the 300 bolt in the 338 still has the problem. When I put the 338 bolt into the 300 action it does not do it either. So maybe there is an anomaly in the 338 trigger assembly?

The early Mato rifles were made in Sturgis at company D. These had Shilen triggers. Maybe later on they saved a little money, of course not passing this savings on to the consumer, by switching to a much cheaper trigger. Not that the price of the trigger is the problem. The origional Matos had a Rem style trigger. A very different arangement then the M70 style that the 76 action was origionally designed with. Someone took a standard D76 put it on a mandrel and turned it round in the lathe. Then they tried to fit a Rem style trigger/cocking piece to save some $$$$$$ and called it a Mato. I know I've had some trigger function problems when switching from silver to gold triggers on M98 actions. Maybe you've got similar trigger problems. In any case I'd MAKE the manufacturer fix it. Get pissy with them and tell them there is a definate safety issue and you're going on a hunt in a few weeks and need it fixed NOW!!! If they ask you what kind of hunt, tell them prarie dog and you've scheuled vacation time and you want it fixed NOW. Squeeky wheel gets the grease.
gunmaker

quote:

Are you telling me you would "SLOWLY" drop the firing pin on a loaded round in the chamber?


Jim

IIRC Elmer Keith encouraged that practice in one of his books when hunting dangerous game. I have never felt comfortable lowering a firing pin on a live round, but I have never hunted in Africa either.

Woody

quote:

Originally posted by woods:There was a ranch owner out in West Texas that had 17,000 acres. His truck gun was a Remington 270 and that is the way he kept it. A loaded cartidge in the chamber and gun uncocked. All he had to do was lift the bolt and lower it again and he was ready to go. Said he felt safer knowing that the firing pin was uncocked rather than relying on the mechanics of the safety. I have known others as well.

He lived with his gun and probably would not care if you thought he was dumb or not.

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!PLEASE TELL ME WHERE THESE PEOPLE HUNT SO I WILL NEVER BE IN THE SAME COUNTY AS THEM.

Did you ever hear of people carrying a single action Colt with the hammer down on an EMPTY chamber. There's a good reason for this, no cure for death, it's permanent!

All you have to do on the Colt or the insanely unsafe rifle with a loaded chamber and hammer down is just tap the hammer/cocking piece and BOOM! Ruger fixed this problem with the transfer bar. There is no fix on a bolt gun.

nervous gunmaker

Hopefully this urban legend will die before the people believing it do!

Rick
Which urban legend?
dryfiring or loaded lunacy?

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Rick
Which urban legend?
dryfiring or loaded lunacy?

The latter!

In boot camp we dry fired our M14’s ALL DAY long for the first week at the rifle range. We called it “snapping-in.†I don’t recall a single broken part or malfunction from any of those rifles when we started shooting live ammo. Those same rifles got passed right along to another group of recruits when we graduated boot camp and who knows how many times each of them had been “snapped†over the years.

I have dry fired my weapons for years and have NEVER had any damage occur to them due to that practice.

As for dropping the firing pin “slowly†on a loaded round I have never heard of such nonsense before.

A sixshooter pistol has an exposed hammer and can be dropped in such a way as to drive the hammer onto the firing pin. Most bolt guns, if not all have the firing mechanism at the rear of the bolt go into a shroud or are not exposed at all so you would need a drive pin and hammer to discharge it. The situations are not analogous. However, I am not defending this practice cause I don't do it. But the first thing I thought of when I realized what happened was to imagine the hunters I have known who use this method if they had this gun and having, at best, a hole in the top of the deer blind.

gunmaker, I've always heard that these Matos had a Shilen trigger but you are much more knowledgeable than I. How can I tell which trigger assembly I have?

Rick 0311, I think you meant the former, as far as dryfiring, this seems to be adding to the urban legend

http://www.berettausa.com/customer/index.htm

As far as sending it in for service, this 338 is shooting consistent 3/4" groups and has a $1,500.00 Zeiss on it which I will not send through the mail. So I would not want to take it apart and send it unless I have to. Back to the original question, which I realize is hard to answer without looking at the gun:

quote:

My question - is this an indication of additional problems?

Woods,

Perhaps I misunderstood the question...but just to clarify my views:

1. Dry firing DOES NOT harm a firearm.

2. “Slowly†lowering the firing pin on a live round as described is INSANE...IMO.

It's pretty common in most of Texas to open the bolt (lift the handle all the way up) on a chambered round when driving the ranch for coyotes. It is considered safer than a chambered round with the safety in the "on" position. One only has to poke the barrel out the window and close the bolt. But I have never, ever seen someone habitually lower the bolt in the manner described on a live round. If he kept the barrel pointed properly I don't suppose I'd care as long as we were in HIS truck. Mine dislikes holes in the floorpan, not to mention bloodstains. Your friend is probably safe in this practice if he has good habits but for the general population it's a recipe for disaster.

The only rifles I have ever had damaged from dry firing were rimfires. One revolver, too.

Maybe I’m weird (which has been suggested on more than a few occasions!) but since when did operating the bolt of a rifle to chamber a round start taking so much time to do?????????

Coyote hunting from a truck is fast and furious and the extra second it takes for a full cycle of the bolt is too long. You usually have a coyote (best case trotting, usually in a full run) crossing a scendero no wider than 50-100 feet. A lot like sporting clays and asking why you have to put shells in your gun before calling "Pull!".

tiggertate,

Not for nothing, but how long does it take to stop your truck...or are shooting on the move out of the window???

You guys ought to get you one of them thar “Gee-Haad technical pick-ups†with a swivel mounted weapon in back...or start setting some IED’s to blow them insurgent little suckers to the Coyte-Allah!

And when was the last time you shot sporting clays from a pick-up truck?

woods
If you pull the barreled action out of the stock and compare it with your other ones you may see a difference. The Shilen ones looked a lot like a Rem with steel side plates. A cheaper version may have an aluminum housing. By pulling the barreled action out and comparing function to your other ones out of the stocks, you may be able to find your problem. An alum trigger housing may have a broken ear for one of the pin holes???

Bolt up sounds like a much better option then hammer down on a live one!

gunmaker

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
tiggertate,

Not for nothing, but how long does it take to stop your truck...or are shooting on the move out of the window???

You guys ought to get you one of them thar “Gee-Haad technical pick-ups†with a swivel mounted weapon in back...or start setting some IED’s to blow them insurgent little suckers to the Coyte-Allah!

And when was the last time you shot sporting clays from a pick-up truck?

Exactly my point Rick; add up all the shit you can't avoid to position for a shot and it's quite a bit of time. Adding that last second can make the difference.

And we have been using EIDs on coyotes for years... never, ever mess around near a mesquite tree that has a little white and red sign that says "Peligro" unless you're wanting a presonal interview with St. Peter! Cyanide cannons don't discriminate!

Never shot sporting clays form a pickup but you're certainly onto something!! We could sure get this mounted on a gimbal!!


I do know of a range that put a 14' johnboat on several coil car springs. You had to sit before calling the birds and stand up in the rickety SOB to shoot. Devious, devious minds !!!

This habit of slowly closing the action while pressing the trigger, with a round in the chamber is quite common in France, ine Germany, in Africa.
But a polish stalker, who worked both in poland an Germany, told me that he once got the fear of his life, when his client let his rifle fall when climbing down from the hochzitz: the fifle hit the ground straight on, the firing pin went down upon the shock, and the spring pushed it up. The pin hit the primer with enough power to fire the round, and the bullet went through the hochzitz, floor and hoof...
I prefer a loaded rifle with the security on, especially when it blocks the trigger AND the firing pin...

quote:

Originally posted by oscar_delta:
This habit of slowly closing the action while pressing the trigger, with a round in the chamber is quite common in France, ine Germany, in Africa.
But a polish stalker, who worked both in poland an Germany, told me that he once got the fear of his life, when his client let his rifle fall when climbing down from the hochzitz: the fifle hit the ground straight on, the firing pin went down upon the shock, and the spring pushed it up. The pin hit the primer with enough power to fire the round, and the bullet went through the hochzitz, floor and hoof...
I prefer a loaded rifle with the security on, especially when it blocks the trigger AND the firing pin...

I think someone is jerking your chain! Is this guy telling you that the firing pin had enough momentum (weight X velocity = momentum) to compress the spring and have it spring back and fire a round when the butt hit the ground???????? I don’t think so.

quote:

Originally posted by oscar_delta:
This habit of slowly closing the action while pressing the trigger, with a round in the chamber is quite common in France, ine Germany, in Africa.
But a polish stalker, who worked both in poland an Germany, told me

This is exactly how those Polish jokes get started...

Think for a second, Rick. In a Mauser the pin already has .030-.045 protrusion being pressed against the primer from spring tension. A good amount of G-force could easily whack the primer hard enough to go BANG!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Think for a second, Rick. In a Mauser the pin already has .030-.045 protrusion being pressed against the primer from spring tension. A good amount of G-force could easily whack the primer hard enough to go BANG!

Yeah, but that ain’t what he said happened...and one more reason why this whole theory is ridiculous. Firing pin tips and primers should only come in contact with each other when you pull the trigger to fire the damned weapon. There’s a really good reason that you don’t use pointed tipped bullets in tubular magazines, same principal different dummy behind the rifle!

So aren't we agreeing?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
So aren't we agreeing?

Very seldom that we don’t... Hey...my momma’s from Texas!

Go away for a couple of hours and look what happens. Personally, every time I climb into or out of a stand there is no shell in the chamber. I'll bet there are stories of dropped guns that had the safety on with a shell in the chamber and went off.

Anyway, for all of you that never heard of

quote:

the dumbest phukking thing I have heard in years.

you have learned that Elmer Keith and Europeans do it too.

And Rick

quote:

You guys ought to get you one of them thar “Gee-Haad technical pick-upsâ€

come on down and ride a few thousand acres in a high-rack truck. We thought of it before they did.

gunmaker, when I have more time tonight I'll take the 2 Matos apart and see if the triggers are the same or if there is any obvious flaws.

Thanks for the replies.

Woods,

Don’t think I haven’t! You haven’t lived until you’ve chased Gimsboks (sp?) with a pick-up while trying to film them. I spent three months on the 777 African Big Game ranch in Hondo, TX filming Ace Ventura II and was out just about every day chasing animals all over that ranch. Even with a gyro-head for the camera there were times it was impossible to keep things steady.

15,000 acres!

http://www.777ranch.com/