A post a while ago got me thinking about all the dangerous things we work with, and sometimes don't even know it. I am especially interested in this because I am a physician, and used to work in Michigan's Poison Control Center while in medical school.

I thought it might be a good idea to list the things we know about, what danger they pose, and how to protect yourself. If this helps one person avoid a bad exposure, I think it's worth the time.

I'll start with wood; the list of woods that are respiratory irritants, directly toxic, or even thought to be a cause of head and neck cancers is LONG, so I'll limit it to the ones gunmakers are likely to use:

Birch (most laminates)
cocobolo
ebony
maple
rosewood
walnut

Fortunately, none of these are associated with increased risk of cancer. Cocobolo IS a notorious sensitizer, causing skin rashes and respiratory / asthma-like symptoms in a high percentage of people. Aside from contact dermatitis on exposed skin, most of the hazards of working with these woods are negated by wearing a facemask -- preferrably the teal blue NIOSH type made by 3M (intended use is protection from TB). It must fit properly, ie. when you inhale sharply, the mask should pull against your face.

Non-wood:
Benzene: BAD; leukemia.

Any mercury containing substance: mercury poisoning; absorbed through skin.

Anniline dyes (aromatic amines): suspected causitive agent for bladder cancer. This is not well-proven, but SUSPECTED is good enough for me.

Please join in with whatever dangerous things you are familiar with.

Thanks,
Todd

I sometimes wonder if the most dangerous thing in the shop is not the customer, distantly followed by the gunsmith.

Along your vein (stuff you might not at first suspect), I will add brazing flux (contains fluorine, turns to hydrofluoric acid, rips inside of your lungs out? yuck. don't inhale.) and space heaters. The heater is great until you spill something flammable on it. Also big springs in enclosed spaces that COME OUT.

My buddy Mike. - Dan

Todd,
Some time ago, I was given a large quantity of 1,1,1 trichloroethane, better known as triclor. It is a very good degreaser but even a better carcinogen. It used to be used for asphalt testing where the asphalt was dissolved from pavement samples to determine the asphalt content. This material was reclaimed from that trichlor containing the asphalt. I used it for a long time and always used gloves. In my earlier years testing asphalt I was not so smart, using it to clean my hands. It is BAD stuff and I suspect that a number of the other sovlents available are in the same category.

Can't let this opportunity slide without continuing my personal campaign against cancer by getting as many people as I can to use Nitrile gloves when handling ANY solvent or chemical! It only takes a second to glove up, and the long term effects are damn well worth the trouble.

Malm

In the spirit of Dan & SDS, I will admit the most dangerous thing in my shop, by far, is the ox running the tools!

Thanks for the replies!

Todd

In some research I did for one of our Exxon / Mobil safety meetings that I gave I found that It takes only 15 pounds of air pressure to blow an eye ball out of the socket. Not much pressure huh? Many of us have air conpressors for home use. Be careful where you point that nozzle!

[ 12-02-2002, 00:50: Message edited by: Bear Claw ]

Gentlemen,

Things to know about chemicals:

1. All chemicals cause cancer.
2. Some are better than others.
3. Take protective measures and you'll be ok.
4. Read the MSDS with a grain of salt and a lot of common sense. The MSDS for sodium chloride sez it is toxic. Sodium chloride is table salt.
5. If you worry about it then your life will be substantially reduced.

1,1,1-trichloroethane is not only a good degreaser it is dry cleaning fluid used by your local dry cleaners. It is the replacement for carbon tetrachloride. Methylene chloride is the finest vapor degreaser I know. Use it only in well ventillated areas; a hood should be used.

Mercury metal will not be absorbed through skin but the vapor will be inhaled and long-term exposure is bad. Be more concerned about the tuna you eat, for that matter, don't eat tuna, I don't. If you get into things containing mercury compounds like methyl, ethyl and methylethyl mercury you are already in trouble, it is too late. Todd gives good advice. Don't play with it.

One rule I now give myself is this: if I am stuffed up I won't go into the lab since the chemicals I work with almost always are toxic in concentrations not too far over your organic detection device (your nose). If you cannot smell it you can get into trouble. Of course there are those things that are odorless. Remember that "toxic" means different things to different people. To me it means, "at this level it will kill you", otherwise known as the LD-50.

Know what you work with and what it can do to you.

Have a Nice Day!

[ 12-02-2002, 00:51: Message edited by: Roger Rothschild ]

Good responses so far; have to add this and it is a biggie!!! no woman should enter this sacred area as the immediate statement will be "oh, this is new, when did you buy this?" sorry, guys, no hijack intended, just couldn't resist - time to shut old dell down and go to the range - yippee!!! KMule

I'm reminded of a statement made by my uncle. He sells pesticides and herbicides for farm use. When explaining the use of one chemical to my brother he said," this stuff isn't much to worry about. Has about the same toxicity level as table salt. It's a good idea to wear rubber gloves when you are working with it though."
My brother replied,"Yeah, I always like to glove up before I salt my potatoes."
Most of the stuff we work with is hazardous in one way or another. Many of us may have already suffered damage from 40 years of exposure.
it is surprising sometimes that some of us get away with the things we do. I know one guy who keeps a pan of gasoline in his shop to use as a cleaning solvent. This saves buying varsol. To further save money, he rinses out shop rags in gas and hangs them around the shop to dry. For 35 years people have probably been expecting to see this shop disappear in a blaze of glory.
Another keeps a pan of laquer thinner for the same purpose. At least he keeps a lid on it. Regards, Bill.

the monkey swinging the wrench is the worst thing in my shop... followed closey by nasty chemicals, sharp and pointy things, things that go BANG when hit with a hammer, my checkering tools (those might be second)and a mauser firepin trapping a 2x spring,..

oh, yeah, and on rare days, my wife

jeffe

Todd---

Having just rinsed my hands in acetone to kill the epoxy remover paste and get the inletting black out of my fingerprints........no kidding.

The closest I've come to being killed in a gunshop was by customers with loaded guns...missed me, twice....and a floor model drill press.

The drill press was a closer thing than the bullets. I was helping a student set up a shotgun blank for drilling the through hole with a 15 inch long spur-point bit. The stock was clamped to the tilted 90 degree table and everything lined up.
When I hit the button the drill wound up to 1500 rpm, (another student had been using a polishing drum) the drill bit bent at the nose of the chuck and struck the column and broke off about three inches which crossed the school and went throug the dirty-room wall. The broken stub sliced through my shirt AND T shirt but only left a pink mark across my belly......it took a while to pry my hands loose from that belly to look!!

I've never worn gloves because everytime I do they dissolve in whatever I'm using. That makes a big mess. It's easier to just wash hands.

You guys take all the fun out of everything. Next thing you will tell me is that you can catch something from making whooppie.

JBelk,

It took me fifteen minutes to respond to this thread. It took me that long to stop laughing at your drill press story!

Well, there's no getting out of it. If it involves guns or the toolroom, JBelk will always be better than me, even at telling funny "what happened in the shop" stories.

I beg to report, however, that there are certain disadvantages to Morse Taper drill press chucks. Particularly if you wind them up to 3600 rpm and use them to cut and polish with an abrasive disk, sometimes the disk and the arbor and the chuck and the taper will drop out of the press when it is inconvenient, still going 3600 rpm...I guess the maker thought he was selling a drill PRESS. The moral must be to be careful if you think there is a chance that you are using a tool in a way that the manufacturer might not have contemplated. Shoulda got that puppy with a screw-in chuck.

JBelk

I was plagued with my gloves disolving in whatever I was using untill I discovered nitrile gloves, cleaning solvents, acetone, laquer thinner, practically nothing bothers them. I get them cheap from Harbor Freight and use them often. The older I get the more concerned I become about absorbing chemicals through my skin.

One hazard in the gun shop I learned the hard way was using a bead blast cabinet. My mask was not very good and the cabinet was not sealed very well and I got the worst lung infection you can imagine. After a couple of visits to the doctor we finally got it diagnosed. It was from inhalation of silica. It took me two months to recover completely. Beleive me you dont want a case of this stuff. Plus it is a known carcinogen. So all you guys using bead blasters and sand blasters be aware, use a very good respirator mask.

Another gunsmith I know was test firing a 98 Mauser of late WWII vintage. He had removed the military rear sight and was holding the barreled action with one hand around the barrel where the old screw hole was. The hole was drilled into the bore and the sight sleeve had it sealed off all these years. When he fired it, it blew a hole in the palm of his hand. When he went to the emergency room expecting treatment for the local wound he was shocked when they hospitalized him for a few days. Turns out that the doctors were concerned that the gasses from the cartridge had blown bubbles into his bloodstream......................a few of them to the heart and it's all over but the shouting! Turns out he did recover.

Longbob--- You thought that was FUNNY!?? I just got to where I could think about it without danger to the laundry!

SDS--

One time when I was a good bit smarter I ran an ancient old LeBlonde 16 with flat belts and no brake on the spindle. I had a job that took a turn off, change parts, turn on, turn 30 seconds and turn off again. High rpm for small aluminum parts and the wind down of the spindle took longer than the job.

Being a smart sumbitch I made a foot brake that work like a strap wrench on the very first test. The spindle STOPPED.

The chuck was still going over a thousand rpm when it unscrewed its self and fell on the lathe bed...there were sparks too......

My goodness!! I've never seen such a crowded machine shop when that thing leaped off the lathe and across the floor carrying all the kenetic energy a 50 pound piece of cast iron can haul.

It never hit anything solid enough to slow it down much, but some of the bigger machines deflected it like pinball bumpers and ran everybody uphill to escape it. It finally wound down near the boss's door which caused even more consternation.

You ever turn a big piece in a four jaw and think you're going to slow the chuck down by laying your hand on it?? Chuck keys??

The good news is that such wrecks makes even the most brain dead a one-time learner.

I knew a co-owner of Mowrey Gun Works (black powder rifles). He was running a lathe and in a hurry and left a chuck key in the chuck, engaged the spindle and the key hit him in the head. He died a few days later from pneumonia while lying unconcious in the hospital.

There was a well know gunsmith in my area when I was a pup who was one armed, built very high grade custom rifles including immaculate checkering with that terrible handicap. He was working on a Winchester model 11 shotgun, it functioned similar to the Browning A-5 and Rem model 11 with a recoiling barrel. He was pushing the barrel back to cycle the action with the palm of his hand over the muzzle and somehow it fired taking his hand and a lot of his forearm off. He never revealed if he had loaded it or a customer. This was very early in his career and he went on to build a lot of high quality custom rifles afterward.

Holy sh** Craftsman, how did I forget to mention that in my first post?! Probably because I don't have one.

Silica dust is a SERIOUS respiratory hazard -- NEVER expose yourself to sandblasting media without a respirator -- not even for a 'quickie' job. I'm glad to hear you pulled through okay -- you can actually DIE from that.

Todd

Todd
I work with guard dogs so my "shop" would be the kennel complex. My work mate was biten the weekend just gone, quite badly. It takes a incident like this to make us other doggies remember that we are dealing with another living creature that has its own mood and personality. Its no chuck key left in, but they bite just as bad.
Bakes

JBelk,

Considering no one was injured, that is by far the funniest shop incident I've ever heard of. I can just see that chuck spinning off the spindle and on down the shop. Was you surprised? Was it loud?

When I was in high school I took classes at Springfield Tech Community College where we were learning how to be machinists in John Garand's old pattern shop. Lots of big heavy machines and young operators with heads full of mush, but nothing like that ever happened.

At a diffent school in wood shop we had a fellow come to demonstrate the new 16" radial arm saw he was trying to sell to our school. He was so confident in his ability he proceeded to show us how he could trim his fingenails on the blade. What a show that was! Cut his left hand clean off in front of the class. I just remember the surprised look on his face. Adding insult to injury, the school didn't even buy his saw! Lesson: Over-confidence can hurt.

Oxy tanks, anyone?

I was on a construction job when a full oxy tank with the guard off got knocked over and boke the valve off on the way down. That thing took off like a 150 pound balloon a kid let go. Bounced around the block building it was in a time or two and then hit the wall straight on. Punched right through and landed in the bushes a hundred yards away.

There were two guys in the building at the time. Neither hurt.

Given the turn this thread is taking, let me share this story:

My dad and I were monkeying around with a oxy-acetylene rig in his garage last deer season(annealing a Mauser bolt shroud to install a PME safety). As he is gently heating the shroud, I glance over at the tanks, and notice A FLAME AT THE TOP OF THE ACETYLENE TANK, jetting out from the regulator hookup. Reeling with sudden chest pain, I got my father's attention and pointed it out -- he said "is that son-of-a-bitch still leaking?" He then stepped over, cut off the flow and beat it out with a rag, explaining that "it won't blow, it coming out under pressure and that pushes the flame away." I guess that makes sense, but still... I think these old guys are protected by a special guardian angel; and they keep him pretty busy.

That episode pretty much killed any desire I had to ever buy my own oxyacetylene rig, aside from the mini I own now.

Todd, same thing happened to me in welding school. Almost loaded my drawers.

The mention of flammable gasses as aluded to in the abovey oxy/acet posts is worth considering. Two things to be recomended are a CO detector, and a flammable gas detector. Flammable gasses when at their flammability levels in an enclosed area can generate a suprising amount of energy.

Last year we had a women in school that used the Iron worker, she didnt mind what she was doing and cut her index finger off... no one can get a strait story because a law suit is pending. Iron workers can be very dangerious.
Almost everyone seems to be talking about stupid stunts "others" have done... Here is a few of mine, At school... polishing a tool on the lathe with 1" strip cloth aluminum oxide, I closed the loop alittle to much and the cloth strip wrapped around my thumb, took the nail off, and damn near took my whole arm with it. (I would never use abrasive grits near my own lathe... abrasives and precision parts no good.)
When in High Scool we use to think it was funny to hold the barzing rod at a 60 deg angle to draw up a large moltin bead on it... then we would flick it across the room at others (tuff high school) the molten bead would shower in to many small frags. Well, smallfry drew up just about the biggest bead, but before I could lauch it... it fell in between my soxs and shoes. Not only did I jump out of my shoes but apparently put on quite a dance as everyone made sport of me for the rest of the year. Man what a burn that left.

I was entertaining my grandsons with a muzzle loader. Take 4-5 Pyrodex pellets, drop down the bore, top with a cotton ball, cap, point uwards of 45 degrees, instant roman candle,

TILL ONE COMES AFTER YOU! NAILED ME RIGHT IN THE GROIN AREA, DON'T THINK FAT WHITE MEN CAN'T DANCE!

In the shop? pulling valve seats from old high pressure(10K.P.S.I.) pump with a 150 ton hyd cylinder, heat the pump head with a rosebud for about an hour, pump up the porta power, pour in about 4 pounds of liquid nitrogen and smack the hell outa' the 2" thru rod.

That 75 lb. cylinder didn't even slow down going thru the roof.

Smallfry, you remind me of the worst welding burn I recieved, and I wasn't screwing around!

I was TIG welding some aluminum, and raised my viser with filler rod in hand to check my progress. It turned out that there was a decent sized blob of semi-molten metal on the end of the filler rod. It was attached well enough for me to raise it up, but it managed to fall off and land on my shoulder. Needless to say I recieved a rather nasty burn!

Honestly, I think the biggest danger is complacency. When you know something is dangerous, and treat it with respect, you tend to keep yourself out of trouble. It's when you treat dangerous things and activities casually that you are bound to get bit. Add fatigue or a head cold, and the shop becomes a very dangerous place.

Fumes from trichloroethylene ,when exposed to flame or sparks form phosgene gas .Very toxic it was used in WW1 as poison gas.

A simple rule around solvents,the quicker it evaporites,the more deadly.

As an electrician and Electrical contractor, I could tell some stories that would curl your hair- it sure did mine when I screwed up.

Lots of shop owners call me to install equipment or fix what they tried to connect and screwed up. Amazing, considering what CNC machines cost these days, that they would risk screwing them up by doing something wrong.
Hire a good electrician to connect equipment in your shop if you don't know EXACTLY what you are doing. You never know how dangerous it can be until you find out the hard way- don't ask me how I know this! - Sheister

How about Eye Hazards?

Caustic bluing salts, a tiny drop splashed in the eye can ruin an eye. I saw one case after the fact in a would-be gunsmith in Alaska. Ruined his desire to work in any phase of gunsmithing.

I was always picking steel particles out of another gunsmith buddy's eyes in Alaska also. He was the owner of the shop where the other fellow ruined his eye.

Safety goggles for grinding, milling, turning, drilling, sanding, bluing, blasting ... ???

And the pneumonconioses that can be prevented by a respirator/mask as noted above ... excellent suggestion.

Oh, yeah, cigarettes, my pet peeve, even though my retarded home state's economy is still depending on tobacco crops.

dwtracker2:

I am sorry for the tone in which my previous comment was offered. I had just gotten out of one of my company's "safety" meetings. The company hires chemists and engineers and expects them to think analytically and critically about everything except safety. At "safety" meetings, the same people are supposed to nod their heads and kowtow to edicts delivered from above. Thinking analytically in a "safety" meeting is pronounced "bad attitude" by management.

H. C.

Shiester

My Dad was an electrician for over 35 years, I grew up carrying a ladder and a roll of wire behind him. I pulled romex through attics and under floors when I was 10 years old.

I retired from a major Texas electric utility in 1992. I started out on the line crew in Fort Worth, Texas and went through the ranks to Trouble Shooter, Distribution Dispatcher, and finally Transmission Sytem Operator.

I could tell dozens of hair raising stories but since this is drifting off topic I'll limit my self to one.

As you probably already know most utilities will only work 12,470 volt primary with hot sticks. Our company routinely worked it off the pole (no insulated bucket trucks) with rubber gloves. In the 60's I was there during two fatal contacts.

While wearing rubber gloves on the pole when you contact the hot conductor with a metal object you would draw a static arc about 1 or 2 inches long. I smoked back then and being a smart ass in my 20's I would draw an arc with my pliers and light a cigarette with it.................The good Lord definately watches over fools and drunks!

I once spent some time with a guy whose company designed and manufactured -really- high voltage transmission stuff like transformers. I was joking around with him, saying something like the first thing you teach your new guys is the plastic on the plier handles doesn't work anymore or something like that, and he came back with the first thing they teach is not to ever point at anything.

"Ether evaporates faster than methylene chloride. Methylene chloride is a lot worse for you than ether. Chloroform is worse yet, and it evaporates more slowly than either one of them. Carbon tetrachloride and benzene are both fantastically bad for you, and they both evaporate more slowly than ether, methylene chloride, or carbon tetrachloride. Acetone fits somewhere in the middle of the series in evaporation rate, and acetone isn't toxic.

It's really sad that stupid rules of thumb float around like this, because people who have to work with solvents get subjected to ever stricter OSHA and company-imposed regulations based on uniformed chemophobia."

I would urge anyone using solvents to simply go to http://www.jtbaker.com/asp/Catalog.asp and look up the LD-50 and other precautions particularly those dealing with allowing these solvents ot contact the skin and the effects on the CNS, kidneys and liver.

I agree with Scheister. I work plant maintenance and have seen things that are simply unbelievable. The most alarming thing I see are experienced electricians and technicians working on live equipment with their spare hand on the machine frame. I keep my spare hand in my pocket, that way when (not if) I touch something incorrectly, I will probably survive.

As a side note, the last company I worked for had some nasty stuff, and being on the first response team, I had to deal with it all. Things like nitric acid; chlorine gas; nf3 (used to etch glass); and chemical concoctions that would make any mad scientist proud. I was once told by a member of the local fire department that if anything disasterous happened, they weren't coming and we'd be on our own until a haz-mat team showed up. Thank God that didn't happen.

Ryan

Gentlemen,

Very scary stories indeed!

But, I think we win this one.

We have a REAL, LIVE, sometimes even THINKING danger in our shop.

Non other than WALTER!

Take a look at this photo of his thigh.



This is what happened when our genius shot himself in the leg with a 12 gauge shotgun. I know, it is very hard to believe, and if any of you have doubts about my story, I won't blame you. But it is all true.

He was working in Germany - before they kicked him out, and me having a kinder heart than common sense, agreed to have him here!

Someone turned up with an O/U which was misfiring. Walter took the stock off to get access to the triggers.

And as some of might know, it is very hard to close a shotgun with the stock off.

So, our genius, not being able to find a snap cap, loaded a live round into the barrel, then found out he could not close the action in the normal way, so he turned it towards him and closed it.

BANG! Walter rolling on the floor drowning in his own blood.

Luckily the doctors were able to save him, and I have been suffering ever since.

Here is nother photo that has a story to it too.



As you can see, he has pretty well managed to destroy his finger
By shooting it with an air rifle - not once, not twice, not three times, but FOUR times!

(I had to stop typing for a while, as we could not help laughing about this)

When someone brings in an air rifle for repair, Walter has this uncanny ability of cocking it, and putting his finger at the muzzle and pulling the trigger

On four of these occasions, the air rifles had pellets stuck in the barrel, which came out and whacked him.

[ 12-04-2002, 11:29: Message edited by: Saeed ]