Hello - the brains trust.

Does anyone out there have firsthand knowledge on fitting a scope onto a 280 Ross rifle? One of the two that I have has asked me several times to take it hunting.

Alas - my eyes haven't been able to handle iron sights for the last 20 - 25 years.

More to the point, two weeks ago I was hunting Springbok in the Kalahari - and the shots were loooong. Since the Ross has a 30" barrel it means that I don't have to get so close :-)

What the hell - who needs an excuse! It's a project that has been waiting for me to attack for some years - and with 10 months before the next season .....

regards edi

You might want to ask this question on huntamerica.com. I know that JohnYCannuck who posts there has done some recent work on a .303 Ross he owns (including rechambering to .303 Epps), so he may be able to help you or direct you to someone who can. Also Steve Redgewell at 303british.com may have some contacts for you.

It is just my opinion - if this is an orginal Ross rifle, it is more of a part of our history than a hunting rifle - if you were my neighbor, I would be glad to loan you a rifle to hunt with rather than see one of these fine old rifle altered. If you insist, please find a qualified gunsmith that will appreciate the opportunity to work on it. I just had to throw in my 2 cents worth.

Thanks Rick - I'll follow that up.

cheers edi

Hello MrUREasy - our posts almost collided.

Message received and understood. It's also one of the main reasons why I haven't done anything about it earlier.

It seems a shame not to give the Ross its turn in the sun again. I form cases from 8x68 and bump 7mm heads up to 0.290".

The other one on the rack that I'm also considering putting a scope on is a BSA Martini-Henry in 300 Sherwood. Here I make the cases from semi-finished 0.222 cases. Machine the extraction groove, draw the case down to diameter over a mandrel to control case thickness, then trim to length.The heads are 125 gn SP 0.308" which I swage down to 0.300.

Thanks for your offer of a loan of a rifle for hunting. My problem is really to decide which one of mine to take hunting!

cheers edi

Is that .280 Ross the straight pull version?

Hello Don - yup, both are original Ross rifles - did I say that I had two?

Why would anyone want to buy two?

Well, the ammo is as scarce as hen's teeth - so when I found a shop that had 40 rounds I was overjoyed.

Even better, the ammo was for free!

The only catch was that I had to buy the rifle.

I walked out of the shop, walked away muttering uncomplimentary things under my breath. Had a second thought, turned around walked back in and parted with the necessary.

Smart operator that - he hadn't even removed the stuff off the counter. Just grinned at me. Guess he recognised a gun nut when he saw one.

The worst about that is that I haven't used a single round of those 40 - I roll my own from 8x68 cases.

One rifle is a 1905 and the other the 1910 model.

It's the 1910 that I want to let loose as the 05's barrel is not in very good shape.

I'm tempted to rebore the 1905 to 280/8mm but first I would have to make a rifling machine - and my life, I think, will be too short.

cheers edi

If I was reboring a .280 Ross, I would take it out to 9mm and I'd have a .354 Ross.

Bye
Jack

Hi Jack,

Looking over my collection of calibres I see that I have a gap between 8x68 and 9.3x62 -maybe I should think of going to 8.5x68 - but with the case tapered down the same as the Ross.

Then because the twist is a rapid 1:9" or so, I should have a look at a 180 gn GS monolithic.

cheers edi

Yes, as Rick Teal said, I have a Ross #10. I have had it chambered and headspaced to 303 Epps. I just had a scope mounted on it. He used the rear sight bridge for the back mount, (original screw hole) and tapped the receiver for the front mount. I kept the rear sight, in a bag, as I could put it back if I wanted.
The rear mount is held by one screw only, and this is a two peice mount. I have yet to fire it after the scope install. If that back screw becomes a problem I will dream up a one piece mount.
My gun was altered (stock chopped and bedded) before I bought it.

For mor Ross info, and a very slow Ross forum, go here:
http://www.armscenter.com/rossrifles/

I do hope that you are aware of the possibility of incorrect bolt assembly with the 1910 Ross.
If it's not put together right, you can close the bolt without engaging the locking lugs. Result is a ventelated forehead. Mine has a rivet installed to prevent that.

[ 08-27-2002, 05:45: Message edited by: John Y Cannuck ]

My effort at a post got lost and it's important. I would not shoot a Ross Straight Pull rifle. They can be put together wrong. Many people have been killed by bolts hitting them in the head.

If you watch carefully from the rear, the locking lugs may be observed moving through about a 90 degree turn as you close the bolt. Or should, if it's put together right. When the bolt is removed, a small turn of the bolt head should make it snap back against the bolt body (shortens overall length by maybe 3/4 of an inch). It should have to be turned out, against spring pressure, to a flat at the top of the thread before it can be reasembled to the rifle.
The ross can be fired safely, but you had better know what you are dealing with, best talk to an owner, or a gunsmith with experience (some smiths are afraid of the guns reputation), AND let them examine your gun.
In addition to the above, it may be possible to fire a Ross when the bolt is not completely closed. I tried it with mine on a case that had only a primer (no powder or bullet) The primer was dented, but did not fire.
It is my personal opinion that many (not all) of the miss assembled bolt deaths were in fact due to dirty actions that were fired in the heat of battle with the bolt not quite closed.

Edi, where do you get the .300 bullets for the Sherwood, I have a Belgian Martini in .300 Sherwood and haven't found anyone with the correct bullet diameter.
Thanks
JeffM

The .354 Ross was an original chambering. The only picture I've seen is in the 1967 Gun Digest, in an article on Ross rifles. It appears to be a necked up .280 and looks like a real moose buster. It's pretty rare and one cartridge collecter-dealer said the cartridges are going for $250 each. He said many .354 rifles had the barrel set back and rechambered to .35 Winchester.

Ross Seyfried had an article in Rifle #187, Jan-Feb 2000. He goes into quite a bit of detail on the 1910 bolt and how not to assemble it. "The bottom line fact was: to get hurt with a 1910 Ross rifle you have to screw up." Ross's words, not mine.

He likes a book "The Ross Rifle Story (Philips, Dupuis & Chadwick, 1984, ISBN 0-9691906-0-3)

Bye
Jack

Hello John – thanks for coming out of the woodwork. I had a go at searching for you in huntamerica.com – but I got sidetracked by a lot of interesting posts.

About the incorrect assembly and then firing your last cartridge story – let’s just say that I am a firm proponent of Darwin’s “survival of the fittest” theory.

After stripping and cleaning the actions I assembled the bolt in every way that it was possible to do and then offered it to the receiver. I found that it would only cock the firing pin when it is correctly assembled – so I’m not losing any sleep about using the rifles.

It would be fun to sit with you and try getting one to misbehave. I suspect the story has grown out of all proportion to what might actually have happened – somewhere – sometime – to someone. Anyway, we then have well-meaning fellow enthusiasts who probably have never had an action in their hands, much less stripped and examined one, feeling that they are duty bound to pass on the warning – and the tale grows and grows.

The poor reputation that the rifle received in WW1 appeared to be due to the corner of the bolt that became "riveted" as a result of hitting the receiver on being closed. Under the sustained rapid fire of trench warfare, the receiver would get very hot and expand. After a break in the firing the receiver would cool down. This together with the riveting produced an interference fit that made it almost impossible to open the bolt. Not a problem that I will encounter while hunting.

OK – enough of that – back to fitting a scope.

The 1905 model is disqualified from being scoped because there is no bridge at the rear of the receiver and the sidewalls look pretty flimsy.

On the 1910 model I was thinking of driving out the rear dovetail with its ghost ring sight, then fitting a replacement dovetail fitting and machining the top so that it matches the height and radius of the front ring. Drill and tap 4 holes and fit the scope “bridge”. The top of the bridge to be dovetailed a la Brno.

Your comments would be appreciated.

Cheers edi

Hi Browningguy – re the Sherwood bullets. We should really start another thread on this one. Where do you get Sherwood cases?

I used 0.308” 125gn SP Sierra bullets (meant for the 30-30) and swaged them down to 0.300” in my Rockchucker reloading press.

Do you have access to a lathe? If you do it’s no problem to buy a high tensile bolt of the same thread as your reloading press. Cut off about 2” of the thread, bore a 0.296” diameter hole right through it. Then follow it with a 0.308 hole that is only about 20mm deep. Blend the two holes with a 1.5 degree chamfer. Polish the bore with 1000 waterpaper and light oil. Add a locking nut and your swaging die is complete.

Now machine a “pusher”. This is just a 50mm long punch with a diameter of 0.2955” and a base that looks exactly like your case holder. I hardened and polished mine but I suspect that it was unnecessary.

I now use a synthetic engine oil for lubrication when swaging. During one of my swaging sessions the case lube was upstairs, I was feeling lazy about getting it so I used my oilcan. I was staggered how much easier the bullet went through the die.

Why 0.296” and not 0.300”? Well there will always be some elastic recovery as the bullet comes out of the die. My hole in the die measures 0.296” but the swaged bullet measures exactly 0.300”

When I've figured out an elegant scope mount for the Martini-Henry action I have a "lucerne patrol" lined up to try out the rifle.

Happy Bangs - edi

Hello Jack - now that's a new one on me. Any chance of mailing me a copy of that 1967 article?

cheers edi

My 1910 was military issue, and has nothing I can see that remotely resembles a dovetail on the rear bridge. The sight is very close to the flip up micrometer sight used later on some SMLE models.
The bridge on mine doesn't look overly strong, but how strong does it have to be to hold up a scope?

[ 08-28-2002, 13:57: Message edited by: John Y Cannuck ]

Hi John - I'll have a go at scanning her rear end ......

cheers edi

Mine looks almost exactly like this:
http://www.armscenter.com/rossrifles/1910.html

Thanks for the link to the Ross site, John Y. I have two Ross 1910's in 303. I always wanted a 280 Ross Improved though. That big case just begs for it. Post some pictures, if you can. Take care - Dan

Dan
I have yet to lay out the coin for a scanner, or a digital camera. I do agree that the 280 begs on very tapered knees to be improved. I think it would be quite a rocket, way over bore capacity of course.

Hello John Y, Hi Dan B,

Tell me, on those 0.303 1910 Ross' of yours, do you have a "selector" for single shot, bolt removal or magazine feed built in on the left hand side of the receiver?

I had a good look at the dovetail that carries the ghost ring sight and found that the bridge which carries the dovetailed sight is removable. There are two screws into the left hand wall of the receiver and another two on the rhs down into the wall that carries the "selector".

That eases things quite a bit - machine a new bridge that utilizes those existing mounting screws and make it with an integral dovetail rail that extends to the front ring. Drill and tap two screw-holes fore and aft of the Ross logo on the front ring.

The front bell of the Leupold Vari-Xll 3x9 that is available for this project, matches the barrel profile too beautifully - and can be made to lie within 8mm of it too.

I'll reblue the rifle at the same time as I do the scope mount.

Then .....

There's a certain Gemsbok that walked past me about 3 weeks ago.

He looked me over rather disdainfully and walked past me - at a distance of only 25m!

That is an insult that I have every intention of redressing next year.

Maybe his lack of concern was because he was quite aware that his season had closed - or maybe he was being scathing about my Springbok calibre cartridge (250-3000).

Mind you, looking at that pair of scimitars at such a close range and with no game fence between you - made me behave very respectfully towards him.

I didn't so much as move a muscle.

cheers edi

edi
I think you are refering to a magazine cut off. Mine does not have one. There is a picture of one on the Ross sight I posted above, on an 05 Ross.
http://www.armscenter.com/rossrifles/1905.html

Hello JackY, I bought the 2002 Gun Digest today because it had an article on the Ross. Some good pictures - one of which clearly shows that the rear sight bridge is removeable. Guess I'll spend some time over the weekend measuring up and preparing a drawing for the scope rail.

Since you have already drilled your front ring I may as well make the drawing agree with the " JyC Scope Mounting Prototype #1".

I'll prepare a sketch of how I see things and post it to you for comment.

Another thing that I noticed on the 1910 rifle. It was obviously used by a very laid back shooter. There are two 8mm diameter plugs about 50mm apart on the crest of the comb, as well as an inlaid patch on top of the neck just behind the receiver. Obviously at some stage the rifle was equipped with one of those "upstanding" peep sights that the 1000 yard shooters used.

Wish I knew more about the previous owner/s.

That Gun Digest was a bad buy - there is also an article on a take down Farquharson action.

Dammit - I have one of those - by Gibbs. Thank goodness it's in good condition - just needs a scope.

Hello DanB - a 280 Improved?

Just buy a 6.5x68 or a 8x68 - just my opinion but I think that the 0.280 Ross probably fathered them!

Certainly the 8x68 swaged down makes a superb 280 case - better than any of the rimmed cartridges.

cheers edi

edi
collect your commision from Gun Digest. I'm gonna get one. It's very clear on my rifle that the sight bridge is removable I can see the screws.

edi, wildcat junkie posted this very thought in the thread on the 8 x 68s posted in this forum. I have to find me more 8 x 68 brass. Take care. - Dan

Hi JohnYC and DanB

Dan I posted something on that 8x68 thread of Wildcat Junkie - have a look.

John - I managed to remove the rear bridge. Be warned - over 90 years the grease becomes a pretty good cement!

I was lucky - nothing broke or got burred.

I used a combination of heat from a hot air gun, hammer blows, spray from a penetrating oil can, curses, swabs of MEK solvent, a great torrent of invective etc. Everything was repeated three times as I managed to remove only one screw each cycle.

The last screw almost had me beat - but then I remembered that I had one of those Brownells Gun Kits - hauled it out and used the ratchet handle and the second smallest screwdriver insert to get some torque onto the screw. Scared that I might shear it - but it gave up and came out.

It looks as though we can do the job in different ways. In decreasing amount of work:

i) Start off with a piece of 5/8" thick flat bar (4130 or similar) and mill the whole thing out in the flat and then bend the rh arm downwards. This would need a fitting/bending jig to make sure that all the holes are drilled in the correct spots.

ii) Make a new bridge so that the top is the same height as the front ring and make a one piece fitting to carry the scope mounts.

iii) Buy another rear bridge and grind the top to the same radius as the front ring - then fit a one piece longitudinal bridge.

Tomorrow I'll go visit the local gunshop and examine one piece scope mounts.

Does anyone know if the 0.303 barrel uses the same thread as the 0.280 barrel?

cheers edi

Ross Seyfried did an article for Rifle a while back that had a scope shown high mounted.
Playing with my Ross over the weekend. Mine is converted to 303 Epps. Ever shoot a 303 180 grain at 2750fps? I have!
One problem though, the recoil is enough to make the rims of the cases jump and lock up in the mag (PIA).
Also took oven cleaner to the stock. Really came up nice with all the oil stains and cosmoline removed. Turns out it's walnut, got a bit of figure too.
Light stain applied, working on an oil finish.

Hello JohnYC,

Recoil.

I have a 9.3x62 - my favourite bush rifle. It delivers 286gn at about 2300 - BUT - it only weighs 7 pounds and that with a full mag. It's best described as a rifle that speaks with great authority - at both ends. Fortunately the job always seems to need only one shot so it's not too bad.

Some heavy loads (definitely over-loads as the cases needed to be trimmed by almost 1mm!) in my 8x68 left me with the imprint of all the 5 shots neatly marked out on my shoulder in the form of broken capilliary vessels. That was fierce.

However one just has to learn to snuggle up very firmly against the stock, concentrate on the sight picture and the trigger sqeeze, and ride with the recoil - or become very recoil shy.

Stock finishing

I was lucky enough to know a stockman who served his time with Holland & Holland. He taught me how to apply an oil finish. I've done my stocks that way and it works. True, it takes a long time - but that is why we have so much time between the hunting seasons.

After you have cleaned and smoothed the stock you make a 50/50 mixture of linseed and turpentine oils. Note the "oils" - these are vegetable oils not "mineral". I get mine at an artist's supply store.

The first coat is a liberal "flooding" of the stock with the mixture. Keep applying it until the wood is shiny wet. Leave it to stand for about 20 minutes and then take a paper towel and wipe it all off. You follow this with a rubbing session using the palm of your hand. "Rub to warmth" is how he put it. Then, and he stressed that this is the real secret of the procedure, you put the stock away, hang it under a tree,whatever and ignore it totally for about 3 weeks.

All subsequent coats are applied in a different manner. You dip the tip of a finger into the mixture and withdraw a drop. Apply the drop to the stock and proceed to stretch it as far as possible by "rubbing to warm". Repeat on the adjacent area, repeat .... until the entire surface has received the thinnest possible coat of the mixture. Only put down one thin layer - ignore apparent dry spots where the mixture has soaked in. They will evetually succumb.

Put it away for 2-3 weeks so that that layer can completely cure/harden/dry out ... polymerize - if you want the correct scientific term for what has happened to the molecules that make up the mixture.

This process needs generous amounts of time/temperature/air/warmth/sunlight.

Avoid applying it thickly - think of a tin of half-used varnish . There is usually a skin that has formed on the surface. You can't dissolve it as it has changed its nature and now protects the remaining liquid from access to air. Keep the layers as thin as possible so that they are fully hardened before applying the next layer.

There will be spots where the mixture will still pull into the wood - avoid flooding it with the mixture. After about 6 rounds it will have sealed.

When you have a totally impervious surface you can begin applying the mixture with a doubled up piece of waterpaper, a postage stamp size of 600 grit is what I use. With this you cut down the previous layers of the mixture back down to the wood surface. This process makes an excellent pore filling paste and prevents a thick coat building up on the surface. You stop sanding about 5 stroke before you pull the paste out of the pores of the wood. Don't worry - you'll soon get the hang of "Dammit that was two strokes ago!". Pay particular attention to sanding the edges next to the checkering back down to wood - I usually start at those edges and work back into the "easy to do " panels. Hand rub to warm and glossy and put it away for 2 - 3 weeks.

Repeat - repeat - repeat ....

Suddenly - and it comes as quite a surprise - you realise that you are working with a "plastic" stock rather than a wooden one.

Keep working over the whole stock until every last spot has been sealed and has reached that plastic look/feel. Never concentrate on the one porous bit that seems to take for ages to respond to the treatment.

This all fills in the time quite nicely betwen hunting seasons. Accept the admiring glances of your fellow Nimrods and tell them it was easy to do - "It just takes 10 months!".

Long process - but it works.

At odd intervals when you are at a loose end you can pull out one of the rifles and quietly spend some quality time with a few drops of mixture and waterpaper - and hey presto - it looks like new again.

I also apply several thin coats to the inside surfaces of the stock - must help to keep it stable. Certainly I have never had a problem when hunting in 100%+ (Natal mist) or 4% (Namibia)relative humidity.

The mixture also has superb anti-rust properties. All my tools wear a coat of the mixture and 30 year old chisels look like they have just been bought. Again wet out the surface, rub in thoroughly, leave standing while you deal with a cup of tea/can of beer and then wipe it clean with a paper towel. Repeat after using the chisel and re-sharpening. You do re-sharpen before putting them away - don't you?

cheers edi.

Thanks for the refresher course Edi. I hope you're not a two finger typist like me. When I said I was "working on" a stock finish, I was saving myself from the typing you did. Amazing! you described the process I have used only once before, to the letter. Marvelous finnish. I learned about it when I had a custom 1886 Winchester done up by a local smith a few years ago. I then used it on an old '94 Winchester and really liked the results. Given where and how I hunt, the repairable aspect of this finnish is really handy.

Hello JohnYC - good to hear that someone else uses the method.

I can understand why polyurethane, tru-oil and the like have an application with those who are trying to make a living out of gunsmithing - but having gone "long and slow" I couldn't imagine doing it any other way. Somehow it highlights detail in the wood that all the others somehow miss. And, as we both seem to have found out - what an easy finish to touch up.

cheers edi.

Hi All - Just to return to the original thread.(Ouch! - no pun intended)

Does anyone have the details of the Ross barrel thread? I'd like to avoid drilling and tapping into it if possible.

I suppose I could remove the barrel and then drill and tap. I'm in the lucky position that I just happen to know that it is a left hand thread.

In my youth I had a little difficulty in removing the nut on the one half-shaft of my Dad's car. Eventually with the aid of a 6" length of 2" steam piping I snapped off the threaded end of the shaft. Discovered the joys of lh threads! Got it fixed without him ever finding out what a useless, half-way-to-becoming-an-engineer, son he had.

cheers edi

I can't tell you anything about the threads. My mounts are back into the threads followed by the bolt durring lock up. One at least is punched clear through.
Does anyone know how to get the Mag apart? I think mine may have a weak spring. I get rims jumping each other durring recoil. Only with 30-06 power level though.
I'm going to have to try different bullets than Sierras if I am going to use that much power. Group opens to 4". I can get to 308 velocities and stay at about 1".