I have a Mauser 1898 sporter rifle, although it does not appear to be an original Mauser Oberndorf sporter.

Here are the particulars:

1. 1898 Mauser small ring, medium length (8.75 inch) action (cocks on opening), with stripper clip slot and blind magazine with steel floorplate.

2. 23 inch, 4 groove, RH twist barrel with full length tapered, matted rib and barrel mounted front sling swivel.

3. Two leaf rear sight (one standing/one folding) mounted in dovetail on barrel rib.

4. Silver bead front sight on ramp integral with barrel rib.

5. Adjustable double set trigger.

6. Oil finished walnut stock with (somewhat badly) checkered, round bottomed pistol grip; side panels; oval cheek piece; rear swivel; schnabel fore end; horizontally ribbed hard rubber buttplate with V shaped protrusion at the top inlaid into notch in heel of stock. 14 5/8 inch LOP; 1 inch drop at comb; and 2 1/4 inch drop at heel.

The rifle weighs 6.4 lbs. It is of a caliber larger than 7mm and could be an 8mm (although I haven't taken a chamber cast or slugged the barrel, so I am not sure). It is well balanced and graceful in appearance.

The rifle has no markings at all on the top of the front receiver ring and no discernible serial number on the action. It has the following various single digit markings in various locations on the flat bottom of the action:

G; 8; N; x [script]; x [script]; L; L; C; D; 3; M; J; 1; 0.

The following proof marks are on the left side of the receiver ring (the marks are located from left to right as described):

Crown; crown over N; St.M.G./12,7 gr

The following additional proof marks are on the underside of the barrel (the marks are located from left to right and top to bottom as described):

Crown; crown over N
7,8 m/m [although the �8� is hard to make out and is something of a guess].
528 [although this, too, is hard to make out--the only clear numeral is the "8"]
404

Any help identifying the origin and caliber of this rifle would be appreciated.

Appears to be a 8mm with a .318 bore, proofed for metal jacketed 196 gr. bullets and smokeless powder. It was probably made before WWI.

Kurt,

Thanks.

A chamber cast is in order to learn the cartridge size. I see nothing to suggest .318� anything. Your rifle was made in may of 1928.

7,8 uses a .318 bullet and 7,9 uses a .323 bullet.

[ 09-14-2003, 21:42: Message edited by: KurtC ]

okay guys educate me. Big task, I know. How did you arrive at the caliber and dates, please?

Chic,

The 7,8 mm is the original proof mark for 8mm J (I) ammunition, used prior to WWI. You will find a 7,9mm proof on post-WWI models that have the 8mm IS bore. Keep in mind that these measurements are for the lands, not the grooves. (.30-06 often appears as 7,6). Later models made for export by the larger factories will also include the common groove designation as well (7,9mm and 8x57IS).

Judging by the 7,8mm (.318) bore and the rounded pistol grip, I would say that the 404 is the date of original manufacture (4th month of 1904) and the 528 (5th month of 1928) is a date that the rifle was re-proofed (possibly for export).

The other possibility is that I have been sipping Wild Turkey on the rocks and really have no idea what I am talking about.

I will caution everyone finding such an 8mm rifle that the reproofing could also mean that the barrel was rechambered from a 57mm cartridge to a 60mm cartridge, to bypass Armistice restrictions on military cartridges. Always test a 60mm cartridge to see if it chambers, before firing a 57mm case (or do a chamber cast). This goes for both .318 and .323 bore, as both were rechambered.

I am fairly concerned about the 12,7 g indication: no 8x57 I or IS rifle should have been proved with this bullet weight (proof rule was that the heaviest available factory bullet was to be used in proofshooting, and that was the 14,5 or 14,7 g).
However, it would fit the 8x51 Mauser, which only had the 12,7 g as heavy bullet. Maybe that was your rifle's original chambering ?

Regards,
Carcano

Carcano,

That is an interesting theory. I didn't realize that the 8x51 was that popular.

Is there a source that indicates the bullet weight proof as it relates to the particular cartridge?

Do you know the approximate year when the bullet weight stopped being included in the barrel proof? I have seen it on rifles made as late as the 1920's, but don't recall seeing the bullet weight proofed on 1930's and later barrels.

I wish I could answer these two very reasonable and worthwhile questions, but I am ignorant myself here... sorry !

Carcano

Gentlemen (und Herren),

I seem to have stimulated a scholarly discussion! Thanks for all of your help.

I have slugged the barrel this afternoon and by my micrometer its groove diameter is 0.323 inch. I still have not taken a chamber cast, though. I have no cerrosafe, but will try to get some.

Regarding the caliber and other questions, I don't know the answers, but can report the following:

Cartridges of the World, 9th ed., in the chapter entitled "European Sporting Rifle Cartridges," lists the heaviest bullets loaded for the 8x57mmJ as being 196 and 198 gr. (I wonder if the latter is a typo and should be 196?). Also, the heaviest bullet listed in this chapter for the 8x51mm is 196 gr.

On the other hand, in the chapter entitled "Military Rifle Cartridges of the World," the heaviest bullet listed for the 7.9X57mmJ is 226 gr.

All quite confusing, and I do very much appreciate all of your help.

mrlexma,

This is exactly why the 8mm never caught on in the US. It is a shame, because it is such and efficient caliber. Any rifle made prior to WWII has to be taken as suspect, and should not be fired until the bore and chamber have been properly checked.

I try to limit my collecting to original factory sporters by Mauser, Mannlicher and Brno, but even they could have been altered by a gunsmith to accomodate a clients wishes.

Best of luck with your rifle, it sounds like one with a lot of history.

I found this one pretty interesteing. I have a pre-war sporter in 8x57 also that I thought was simple to figure out. Barrel is marked ++ then 7.9mm. There are a few other individula marks but they are so light they can't be read. This one also has a full length matted rib, 1 standing and 1 folding sight, made by Ernst Hunger, Wilmersdorf.

The action is a military style with thumbcut and charger hump, all nicely (lightly) engraved. The markings on the action are 2.75 gG.B.P. over S.G. I thought this should signify a 8MM JS (.323") proofed for Military Flake Powder with clad bullets. Anyone have any idea on the 2.75 marking? I think 12.75 grams works out to around 192 grains and this one is just missing the "1", or it's so lightly struck I missed it when I had the action out of the stock.

Anyway, it chambers and fires standard .323 ammunition perfectly.
Thanks,

Browningguy,

Where on the action are the markings?

The markings are near the front on the left side of the action. The first line is above the woodline and the rest below.
Thanks,

This is an interesting discussion! And, to add to an already very confusing situation re: 8mm rifles, in the early days of smokeless powder, a lot of European rifles were made with a groove diameter larger than bullet diameter! For example, there are known examples of the 8X57 JS Gewehr '88 rifles which made with .322" bores to fire .318" bullets (maybe ALL of them??)! I have a J.P. Sauer double marked 7,8X57R, (WHICH WAS PROOFED/REGULATED FOR THE 12.7 GRAM BULLET ALSO!!), that slugs .322" groove. It was rechambered in 1944 for the 8X60R, and when fired, the case mouth expands to a diameter with plenty of room for a .323" bullet to enter the case easily. I shoot 200-grain Nosler .323" bullets in it, and it will pattern into less than 3" with a load that gives 2620 FPS with this bullet. All from a gun originally marked "7,8" ! When it was rechambered, the "7,8" was X'd out, but is still quite legible. I believe the groove diameter of these Sauer barrels was always .322", before and after it was rechambered for 8X60R! I have no idea if the throating was increased in diameter when it was rechambered. However, I do know a number of Gewehr '88's were altered to fire "S"-size German military ammo by just increasing the throat diameter. If these guns had .322" grooves to begin with, there should have been no problems from firing them with "S" ammo, and the German Army did so!! I realize that "S" ammo developed a lot higher pressures than the G '88 was designed to handle, but I'm sure the German Army officials knew this too!

[ 09-15-2003, 18:14: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

BrowningGuy,

I am going to take a guess that the markings on your rifle refer to "Brattchen-Pulver," an early nitro-cellulose powder from the late 1800's. The measurement 2,75 appears to be in grams, which may have been easier for early handloaders. The equivalent would be about 42.4 grains.

Thanks KurtC, these older German guns can sure be fun to try to sort out.

To add to the discussion, I will check tonight to get the numbers and such off my commercial pre-war sporter that matches this rifle very closely except the bore marking on mine is 6,4 mm.

RJS

Well, I finally got ahold of some cerrosafe and took a chamber cast this afternoon.

Looks like I have an 8x57mmJS.

-----------Chamber Cast------8x57mmJS

Bore dia:--- 0.323"-----------0.323"
Neck dia:---0.358"-----------0.350"
Shldr dia:-- 0.439"-----------0.435"
Base dia:---0.473"-----------0.470"

Case length is hard to measure with a chamber cast, because the bolt face is set back from the breech of the barrel, but it looks as though the 2.24" case length of the 8x57mmJS is correct.

I'm happy that it's the standard 8mm Mauser chambering--it will make feeding this old girl a lot easier. Next, to get some ammunition and take her to the range.

Thanks, gentlemen, for all of your help.

[ 09-29-2003, 02:25: Message edited by: mrlexma ]

err, hmm, well.. damn.... yet another time where i thought I knew something

I'll buy a 96 or 91, easy.... but i THOUGHT the small ring true 98 didn't come out till after the 323 bore.

ya'll help me with this hole in my knowldge, please.

MR,
please take the bolt out, and see that there are 2 lugs up front (there will be) and a third lug on the bolt, way back, that would be under the rear bridge when it's closed.

jeffe

jeffe,

Yep, she's a small ring '98. I swear. All three lugs are there and she cocks on opening.

Just goes to show that you can never take anything for granted when a Mauser in "8mm" comes your way.

By the way, to add even more confusion to the mix I have had to deal with, the guy who sold this rifle to me told me it was a 7mm! When I found out she had a little bigger waistline, I really didn't care though.

I only have a little more than $300 into this old fraulein, and I'm thinking about a restoration, complete with claw mounts and a vintage German scope, if I can find one. She's a finely machined, carved and graceful piece, and I really like her light weight and great balance.