Getting down to the bottom of my bottle of Tetra-Bore solvent. Not sure I'm sold on this stuff, although I like the Tetra-Lube for everything.

If I could figure out a way to mix Hoppe's #9 with distilled spirits and make a cocktail out of it, I'd patent it and open a bar. *G* I have a G/F who uses the stuff as cologne. That's why I love that woman!

Seriously, I think Hoppe's is probably "OK" but not serious for removing coppering. Dilute ammonia will remove coppering, and so I have problems spending $15 on an 8 oz. bottle of solvent when I can get a gallon bottle of ammonia for about $1.29. I thought about standard cleaners like Formula 409. I use 409 for a degreaser and general cleaner. I wonder how it might work in a bore?

Ed's Red??? I know the recipe is around. What say you on this stuff?

Break Free? Shooter's Choice? Carburator cleaner?

I hope we have a chemist who can give it to me/us on a molecular level.

You mean there is a bore cleaner out there other than Ed's Red and of course plain old dish washing detergent and water for black powder.
Yes ammonia does remove copper, but then it does less than desirable things to steel too as I understand it.
Luckily I just dont have anything that has copper fouling problems, including my rough barreled old Type 38 Arisaka.
LouisB

If I've been shooting corrosive ammo or black, I first clean the bore thoroughly with plain old Windex. Then I use Ed's Red (cheap and effective) to remove the carbon and powder fouling. If I want to go after the copper fouling I use Sweet's 7.62. For noncorrosive ammo, I skip the Windex.I have used this procedure for years and it has always worked for me. You can buy generic window cleaner at any large supermarket, it's way cheaper (and works just as well).

Ammonia is hard on the blue. I would imagine this goes for "browning" too and maybe for nickel finishes. But most cleaners are ammonia based. Ammonia cleaners are dilute 3:1 with water . . . 3 water / 1 ammonia. This saves the blue, but you need to wipe it off too!

Most cleaners I see warn about blue finish, nickel, and plastic damage.

Ed's Red is a folklore formula. I think it's wise to read broadly on the subject --

The first ten of 31,400 "hits" for "Ed's Red" on www.google.com:

http://www.shotgunreport.com/Articles/EdRed.html

http://www.hanned.com/techedsred.html

http://www.prairienet.org/guns/use/edred.htm

www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/edsred.htm

www.kuci.uci.edu/~dany/firearms/eds_red.html

ww.building-tux.com/dsmjd/tech/eds_red.html

www.recguns.com/Sources/XC1a.html

www.totse.com/en/politics/right_to_keep_and_bear_arms/ eds_red.html

www.epinions.com/fddk-Beers-By_Name-All-Ed_s_Red

www.epinions.com/fddk-Beers-By_Name-All-Ed_s_Red/ display_~reviews

Two concerns I have about Ed's Red . . .

First . . . is that it DOES NOT remove coppering. Dilute ammonia will remove coppering, but I'd be hesitant to mix ammonia with some of these other chemicals. Ammonia and simple household bleach mixed together produce a toxic gas. I'd be wary of mixing ammonia with acetone, mineral spirits, etc.

Second . . . Ed's Red is both a solvent and a lubricant. I don't need a lubricant. I have bore lube for the bore. I want a cleaner, not an "all purpose" elixer.

[ 08-11-2002, 02:20: Message edited by: Genghis ]

This from my colleague, chem. prof at the local university -- retired.

Ammonia will NOT disolve at all in mineral spirits, paint thinner, turpentine. Probably won't disolve in the transmission lube used in Eds Red.

Ammonia may dissolve in acetone, but who knows what will be the result?

Ammonia will dissolve in Formula 409, but this may disrupt the high base PH in 409 and compromise the cleaning action. It may really smell foul too.

KISS approach may be the best. Dilute 1:3 Ammonia / water. Then use Eds Red for powder fouling. Although I think 1:1 acetone and mineral spirits are probably superior to something that also tries to lubricate.

I use Tetra Lube . . . a polymer rust preventative and lube. Forms a molecular bond on the surface of the steel.

I think the reason ATF is used in Ed's Red is because of its high detergent content. I have used hi-detergent 10w motor oil in place of the ATF and it works just as well. I don't use ER as a lubricant. Ammonia dissolves completely in denatured alcohol.

"ammonia" is mostly water. It won't hurt the bore at all, the water hurts the bore. Use and clean it out.

It won't mix with the oils 'cause it's mostly water. Ammonia solution is mixed into an emulsion in the various commercial products using very high-speed mixers that can get it into an emulsion. That's why Sweet's is so slimy.

Ed's is very good as a general cleaner, I made some and added the lanolin too. This is very good stuff.

See Hatchers Notebook Chapter XIV "Gun Corrosion and Ammunition Developments". It's an interesting read re fouling, cleaning, and cleaning solutions/components.

Barrel and rifle maker Kenny Jarrett puts on a barrel cleaning seminar; he has given it at the last two SCI Conventions. I went to one two years ago.

He shows some cool videos of bore scope examination of barrels to illustrate what he is talking about. He recommends cleaning with Shooters Choice to remove everything but the copper, followed by Sweets 7.62 to remove the copper fouling. After the Sweets you use SC again.

I have been using his method for the last two years, and it will clean your barrel. Of course, a lot of other things will do that too.

I like to have Hoppe's around just to smell if nothing else. Transports me back to the days when I was my grandfather's cleaning monkey.

jim dodd

I must be living in a cave or something ...

Hoppes #9 works just fine for 90% of my cleaning. JB or RemClean handles the "Superfund site" cleanups. Simple is as simple does, according to someone even simpler than me.

Another solvent popular 'mongst the Service Rifle fraternity is GM Top Engine Cleaner, available in gallons from your friendly General Motors dealer. It conspicuously resembles Shooters Choice, I'm told.

Redial

Wipeout is the best stuff I have found, and I have tried everything. This stuff works like a champ and requires no scrubbing. There are a number of posts out here talking about the benefits of Wipeout. You can see it here = http://www.paulcousa.com./

Water and water base solvents won't hurt the bore. Black powder shooters clean the bore with hot soapy water. You DRY the bore after and apply a lubrication to keep off the oxidation.

If a substance won't go into solution, no amount of spinning, thrashing, atomizing will keep it from settling out. I think ammonia base solvents use a vehicle that ammonia dissolves in. Alcohol does that, and is a good cleaner.

Maybe what we're seeing develop here is a two fold approach: One for powder, and a second for copper. That makes a lot of sense.

Also, cleaning the bore using a solvent and lubrication are two different processes. I clean the powder fouling out of the gas pipe in the AK with turpentine. Seems like that's what a third world mercenary would approve of.

Once the first shot is fired in a rifle you are back to a copper fouled bore again! I have fired matches with up to 150 shots and not cleaned the bore and done very well.

I use some Hoppe's #9, a brass brush and then wipe it clean and oil it. There is still fouling left and these rifles shoot well and the first shot is predictable and in the group with the subsequent shots.

This is easy.

Now if a rifle is not shooting well then it's a different story and everything is suspect but fouling is not at the top of my problem list. In fact as I point out it's "natural".

I have used Hoppes#9 (with nitro benzene) since I was 12 years old and still do. I don't feel I am hurting my rifles by doing this. The only exception is when I occasionally use JB Compound. I have tried Sweets and it does remove copper but I don't think the removal of every atom of copper from the barrel is of any benefit. Regards, Bill.

Particularly in small bore, high velocity calibers (223 Ackley, 22-250) I think that shooting through a fouled bore increases wear on the bore. I base this on the resistence needed to push a patch on a jag through a fouled bore.

I clean the bore every ten rounds when shooting off the bench, Rem 700 PSS, .223 AI.

Seems to keep the bug hole all buggered like we want.

I've tried Hoppes, Barnes, Breakfree's, and a mixture of alcohol, peroxide, and a mild soap. They all will work, but the best stuff that I have ever seen is Wipe Out. Read some of the comments about it on a recent posting here. Spray it in; it foams up; let it set (its safe to leave it); and wipe it out with dry patches and a tight jag. The powder fouling comes out, and copper fouling comes out. Ku-dude