Am I missing something...The QD Lever on my Talley Rings cannot rotate enough turns to clamp on and off becuase it hist the bolt release lever.

Any issue with grinding down the lever...or am I gulity of felony stupidity here...

Don't they ratchet like the Leupold levers?

Turn the ring around and put the lever on the other side.

Chuck

Mike---

I've never used the Talley bases. Are they slide on or clamp on?

On sliding mounts made right, the lever only moves a quarter turn and then slide right off.

Mike, unless they have changed them, you can move the lever relative to the threaded screw. Has been a while since I got a new one.

All,

You can move the index point.

Jack it would appear they are clamp.

It requires almost 1.5 rotations of the lever to go from drop into place to locked. Therefore, indexing the lever doesn't effect clearance issues.

FYI - I did call Talley and they say yep its a problem with mauser bolt releases. Answer they gave - move them to the otherside.

Curious what do you think about have in the levers on opposite side left on the front, right on the rear.

Mike,

I don't think I would risk using the levers at all on your Mauser. I would use the screws instead on the release side. I doubt that you are going to be in the field without a Leatherman (or it's equivalent). You won't be, will you? Good.

Since you will still be able to remove the scope in a timely enough fashion to use the sights, there is no real urgency for the levers. The levers are preferable because of the ease and more speed to remove the scope if needed. But it is most likely that you won't need to do this in the middle of a charge.

What really could happen is that the levers could loosen and block the bolt from operating. This happened to Ray Atkinson and almost got him into a real bind. You weigh the risks yourself.

Longbob,

But chicks dig cool looking levers...

[ 04-04-2003, 07:45: Message edited by: Mike Dettorre ]

Mike,

I forgot that they are Torx heads. I had to go check mine. Be sure and pack a Torx wrench with your Leatherman.

I know that the levers look cool and will get you to second base. But you do want to make it all the way home. If that Buffalo stomps on you because your bolt got all tied up with your levers, then....

I wouldn't worry about having the levers on the right side. The Talley rings for CZ550s and BRNO 602s can ONLY be installed with the levers on the right side of the action.

Best,
Joe

Mike---

With the levers on the right and vertical when locked they tighten with every shot, not loosen.

Inertia, does the work again....

If Jack belt recommneds puttin on the right...I am puttin on the right.

Jack gonna shoot the 9.3x62 you built on the Ruger this weekend. and I got another one of your guns...

...you re-bbl'd or built a 9.3x64 for Ray on Belgian Mauser?

I assume Belk 00 on the bottom of the bbl is you?

Jack,

You and Ray are good friends. Ask him how his loosened. Again, it is your tail on the line. Not mine. You weigh the risks.

[ 04-04-2003, 11:16: Message edited by: Longbob ]

Longbob,

If my mauser jams I will use my pen knife.

No! No! No! You use your Leatherman!

Seriously though. If there is no risk of the levers loosening and blocking the bolt from recoil, snagging, etc.... Then why would you even be asking the question in the first place? And why would the conventional wisdom be to put the levers on the off side from the bolt/port? There has to be a reason.

I have a great deal of respect for Jack Belk as a gun smith/maker. But I have a greater respect for Mr. Murphy. Again, it is your rifle.

Longbob said--

quote:

---

Jack,

You and Ray are good friends. Ask him how his loosened. Again, it is your tail on the line. Not mine. You weigh the risks

---

I've read this several ways and added and subtracted punctuation and played it backwards and I STILL don't know what you're talking about.

What loosened? Why is my tail on the line? (what tail and what line?) What risk?

Maybe I came in this movie in the middle?

Mike-- That means I installed the barrel in the year 2000.
Let me know how the 9.3 shoots....it should be a good one!

Jack,

I sorry about the confusion. I meant that Mike's tail is the one on the line, not yours. My post was anything, but clear when I reread it.

I'm referring to Ray Atkinson. I know that you know him well. He has written several times about an incident that he had the levers on the bolt side of one of his rifles. One had loosened and prevented him from operating the bolt during a very tense time. This has happened to others, but none come to name right now.

I'll pose the same question to you as I did to Mike. Why would the conventional wisdom be to put the levers on the off side from the bolt/port? There has to be a reason.

Jack,

If you look three posts down from your original post, you can see where I first brought up this problem that Ray had.

Ah HA!! Thanks. I hate to wake up confused and then get WORSE!!

QD levers are EXACTLY like anything eles held by screws.... IF the parts fit together *right* they'll NEVER loosen from use. You don't need locktite or pliers or a tire iron to tighten or loosen.

Back when QD levers were made in right and left hand threads it was normal to mount them on the side opposite the loading port....the front lever tightened by laying down to the rear and the rear lever tightened horizonal to the front. That left the two levers parallel with the bore, out of the way, and unable to snag on anything. A quarter turn to the vertical position allowed the scope to slide off the rear

When both rings are right hand thread the levers are mounted on the right side and vertical when locked. That causes the levers to tighten at every shot from the small amount of inertia they have.

If you feel a spongy feeling on the lever it means the ring doesn't fit the mount. Something in out of whack. Find it and fix it.

Mike & Jack,

Here is a link to Ray's story. http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005362#000010 And the story.

"I used Warnes for several years until one day recoil bounced that spring retained Lever around until it blocked my bolt lift, and as luck would have it a Cape Buffalo was comming my way, fortunately I had a good PH...I finished the hunt by taping the levers straight up on my Mauser...When I got home I switched all my rifles to Talleys, a decision I have never regretted....

Take heed to this warning, this is not an isolated incident....pretty much applies to Mausers as you cannot mount Warnes levers on the left side because of the bolt release, at least with low bases, which I always use on a DGR..."

I feel that the Talleys are far superior to the Warnes and would be less likely to loosen. But the Warnes didn't tighten with the levers on the right hand side due to recoil on Ray's gun. They loosened.

Longbob,

People put on the left cause its smarter more practical and reliable. So what's your point?

I actually think Ray's problems was with Warne rings but no matter.

Don't worry I have lots of insurance

Mike,

I'm going to tell my wife that you said I was more practical and reliable. Then I am going to pick her up off the floor because she will be to weak to stand from laughter.

The Warn rings Ray referred to had a spring loaded lever where you could pull the lever straight out and then reposition the levers to any of six positions.

I can see how Ray could have had a problem with them on a heavy kicker.

THe whole conversation has no bearing on Talley rings or how they lock.

Glad we got THAT cleared up!!

D Hum,

Talley was not implying the mauser was a problem. They were saying to use the their levers given the mauser bolt release they need to be on the otherside.

To re-position the Talley levers you have to loosen them and push the lever down onto the screw. The actual screws that hold the mounts have a hex head that corresponds to the hex part of the lever. The lever itself is in effect a hex head wrench.

Loosen the lever/screw and push the lever down under the hex head so it will pivot freely around the threaded part of the screw, then pull it back up to engage the hex head of the screw, then tighten. Sometimes to have to loosen and re-position a couple of times to get the levers where you want them. But once locked down - there is not way that the lever portion can bounce around.

As I understand it, with the Warnes you tighten the screws and then pull the spring loaded levers up off of the screw and pivot them to where you want. So I can see how heavy recoil might bounce them up and around. This particular happenstance cannot happen with the Talleys.

I never thought about positioning the levers so that recoil automatically tightens them. Being left handed, I automatically put my levers on the right side of my LH action. Hey, score one for the southpaws! Finally. As far as tightness, I know that I can tighten mine just finger tight but then to loosen them I have to take the handle of my knife to knock on them to loosen them.

Now you have to remember that Jack has never shot anything bigger than a Improved Hornet until last week and he is seeking medical advise for that one.....

Warnes WILL flip around and change positions because of the placement spring that lets you position the levers in any desired position...this will happen via recoil in .338 and larger in my experience..this is only a problem on Mausers as all levers need be on the bolt side of the gun, they will shift and refuse a bolt lift, regardless of what some gunsmiths who apparantly hunt litte, may contend. If installed on the left side (non bolt side) the l bolt release interferes with the rear lever going off or on.

Now I suppose with a set of fitted rings this could be avoided by cutting the dovetails to take a 3/4 turn...Not my choice.

In my case I had a jammed gun at an inopertune time and ended the hunt with a set of taped up Warnes...Got home and sold all the Warnes to Belk..They work good on light guns, unless funny fingers gets hold of them, he is a large friend of ours (mine and Belk) who has a habit of fiddling....

I have never had any kind of a problem with Talleys and I set them up to tighten to stright up on the right side (bolt side)...I have a tool that I use to get some leverage on the levers, it is a 3" piece of arrow shaft, with a turkish walnut rim glued in one end and I carry it in my cartridge belt...I slip the other end (hollow end) over the levers and tighten them or loosen them, as required on my big bores..I have found finger tight is not for Safari trucks and camp staff fiddlers..

At any rate Mike, put the levers on the other side. some prefer cut the rear lever shorter so it will turn a circle. I like the bolt side set up and feel that I can remove the scope quicker if need be, at least it feels better to me.

Jack,

I have been thinking about your posts and inertia for the last couple of days and I just can't get it to add up.

I use Talley QD levers on my 458 Lott Model 70. It weighs 10 lbs 15 oz. My loads average 2320 fps for the 500 grain pills that I shoot. My scope is a M8 2.5 Compact Leupold. The levers are obviously mounted on the left hand side with right hand threads. Both levers are tightened to end up vertically down.

The greatest amount of intertia that would be applied to tighten the levers with right hand threads under recoil would be vertically down if mounted on the left and vertically up if mounted on the right. They would have to be mounted either vertically up or horizontal on the right in order not to block the port or to interfere with the bolt.

Back to my Lott. As to how well the Talley's are engineered (I think they are by far the best rings for just about any price) and how well they are machined for fit, they still loosen on my gun in about 15 shots. It is something that I constantly check. Under the inertia theory that you post, my levers should be tightening when they are mounted vertically down. They are not.

[ 04-06-2003, 05:57: Message edited by: Longbob ]

Longbob---

If the rings loosen at all it's because the mounts and rings don't fit right. The scope tube is under flexing stress and one or the other of the dovetails is offset to the other in one plane or another.

A warped cylinder head will loosen in use no matter how tight you cinch down the dozen 9/16 grade eight bolts. You can't expect two 10-32 screws to stay tight if the parts don't fit?

You may be able to repair it by lapping, but I doubt it.

For many years QD *rings* were made for sale to the trade but not mounts for exactly this reason. The mounts are better made from barstock and machined in tandem on the action and then lapped with the ring.

The difference in operation, strength, and accuracy is astounding.

Jack,

Talleys are machined from barstock with ultra tight tollerances. Each of the ring pieces are numerically marked to match each other as they are all machined together. The alignment of the bases has been checked by my gunsmith, Speedy Gonzales, and they are fine. The rifle is from the Winchester Custom shop. I guess they take a little more time with this stuff.

Back to your inertia theory. Even if things weren't quite perfect. Why wouldn't the levers be tightening in their position as you suggest? They are loosening instead. I bet I could change the rings to the other side with the levers up or horizontal and they will loosen in the same number of shots. My theory is that it is just from plain violent recoil. It doesn't matter which brand you use and which side you mount them on, you run the risk of them loosening on a rifle of this caliber.

LongBob---

I wasn't clear enough....

The *rings* are perfect......or at least I've never seen a pair that wasn't.....the *mounts* I'd bet are perfect to the print...that's how Talley makes things.

The rifle receiver can be off as much as .030 !!!!

ESPECIALLY new M-70s. I ground one for Brockman last week that was .021 different from what it was supposed to be. I have THREE more to do this week. It's very common.

I've made custom mounts to fit Brownell's, Warne, Burgess, and Talley rings on everthing from 22 K Hornet to the .585 Nyati. They DON'T loosen unless you want them to.

Custom mounts are contoured blocks of steel screwed to YOUR receiver that's been mounted in the milling machine and indicated straight with the boreline. THEN the dovetails are milled. Most of the time there's less than one MOA between a zeroed rifle and a new scope with the adjustments in the middle.

Do this test-- Sit the scope on the mounts and only tighten the front ring. Pay close attention to when you feel resistance in the lever. How much does the lever move between first resistance and tight? Now the rear ring with the front tight. Are they the same? Is the movement between resistance and tight more than an eighth turn?

I rest my case.

Properly fitted, properly made dovetail rings will NOT loosen with anything you can shoot from the shoulder.

[ 04-06-2003, 23:24: Message edited by: JBelk ]

Jack,

I got my rifle out and tried your test. From initial resistance (somewhat subjective) to as tight as I can reasonably get them is closer to 1/4 of a turn. Maybe the test indicates that the alignment is not dead nuts perfect. Speedy indicated that it is. But please answer why your inertia theory doesn't override this. It doesn't work both ways.

This goes back to my original comments on this thread. And the points that you bring up about most all rifles are out of alignment. Thus the rings will not stay tight. Unless Mike is willing to make everything just absolutely perfect, he is running the risk of getting himself in a bind unless he is diligent about keeping them tight. There have been a few comments that Talleys won't loosen. They will.

Longbob said--

quote:

---

There have been a few comments that Talleys won't loosen. They will.

---

They DON'T if they they're mounted right.

I suspect there isn't enough inertia to overcome the spring you're getting in the assembly.

The lever weighs what? 20 grains? And only the very end of that is far enough from the attachment point.
The recoil in feet per second is about 22. The energy on that lever is about the same as the world's strongest ant could supply.

The point was, at least that energy is applied in the right direction.

You have an alignment problem that will only be solved by alignment of the bases.

Jack,

I'll have them rechecked and fitted if necessary. I guess you also made my point. Unless everything is just perfect and you suggest they have to be, you are running a significant risk of bad stuff happening by mounting the levers on the bolt/port side. Maybe that is the reason that most put the levers on the off side because most rifles are far from perfect.

All of the pictures that I have seen of D'Arcy Echol's and David Miller's rifles have the levers on the off side. As close to perfect as they attempt to get their rifles, even they don't tempt old man Murphy.

Longbob,
Jack is dead on....Also keep in mind that few rifles will return to smak dab zero unless the bases are custom fitted....

All mine are custom fitted, usually by Jack, and they will shoot 1" to 1.5"s (or even less in some cases) 6 shot groups with the scope removed and replaced between shots.