I have been using some fairly old Mark Lee Express Blue and am having a hard time getting a blue black color. The blue has worked for me in the past. With steaming and/or boiling it is coming out more of a brown color. Does anyone know the shelf life of the solution, or any ideas to get more of a blue black color?

Maybe the water?

Could be, but I've steamed them as well as boiling and doesn't seem to make any difference.

Is the metal hot enough when you apply the solution? I've used some pretty old express blue in the past and it worked fine.

Don't put too much on the first coat. It's a black art; that is why everyone can't do it. Not a science like hot caustic bluing.
I only use Bobster's blue solution and he makes several. I use the American type. Last week I did a receiver and I poured boiling water over it just to see what would happen; dead black, one coat!

The (Mark Lee) soln may be contaminated (oil)
That can easily happen if when using it, it's used right from the factory bottle.
Or if some is poured out separetely to use on a project,,and then any unused portion is poured back into the factory container afterwards.

The metal might not be clean enough.

The carding material (steel wood, carding wheel, brush) may be contaminated. These can quickly smear a coat of oil all over the surface while you card and you won't even see it. But the next application of soln will be compromised and off color as will all the rest.
The applicator may be contaminated from the start.
Many like to use soft, well washed clean old T shirt mtrl and that works very nicely IF the washing cycle didn't use a softener in the rinse and the rinse was complete & thorough .
That softener can combine with the blue soln when applied and make for some funny colors and patterns.

Using a patch of paper towel would seem like a good approach too. But many of those have perfumes & ink, and now even soap and disinfectants in the paper that become activated when wet.

The water might not be OK for rust bluing.
Municipal water can be used in some areas,,not in others. Just too many chemicals in it, and it can change.
Even rain water or snow-melt can hold contaminates.

Some alloys just don't want to blue with some rust blue solutions.
You have to change to another soln,,Sometimes increase the temp of the metal before application to make it work on that particular stuff.
Sometimes lightly etching the surface before the first application makes for a better blue.

Sometimes applying the first coat of soln using a tuft of 0000 steel wool as your applicator instead of using a cloth will work to get it to bite and start rusting better.
The steel wool must be cleared of any oil of course.
I've done this more than a few times and has help greatly on stubborn Express Blue jobs.
Don't re-use the steel wood pad. Use a new one each application if you use the trick more than one cycle.

Etching before Express blue used to be commonly done with very dilute HCL and applied to the warm parts just pulled from the tank.
You can also etch them with Ferric Chloride (5% soln or even less). A quick COLD dunk and out and then rinse under cold water.
If you dunk a bbl to etch it you MUST plug the bore(s) to protect them.

Otherwise I don't plug the bore(s) at all during Express or Slow rust blue.


I just completed a restore on a Remington Model 8.
It was the first firearm in a long long time that would not blue properly by the Slow Rust method.
The bbl jacket would and a few small parts,,but not the frame and trigger guard.
I finished up the project w/ MArk Lee's Express on everything.

Like dpcd says, it's black art and you must be able to switch gears and have alternate techniques available to go to and make it work sometimes.

I'be been rust bluing for over 50yrs and I still learn about it as I go along.

A million rust blue can fail, especially for those that don' t do it all the time..brown is normally from too much heat..Thats one reason it cost about two or three times more to get a rust blue, but its worth every penny, it last two or three lifetimes if done right.stay away from bead blasted rust blue finish, its pretty for awhile then starts rusting in the pits..

With any rust bluing, a chemically clean start is absolutely required..and that's not always easy.

Never pour unused solution back into the bottle..there WILL be contamination.

Alswys wear exam gloves during the process and don't touch anything that may cross contaminate

Make sure your wire wheels are completely degreased before every job.

Always used distilled water. With Mark Lee's solution, the solution should dry immediately upon application..if not, heat the part up with a heat gun, next pass,leave it in the boiling water longer to bring up the heat

These simple rules will get you a fine job just about every time.

The use of an etch breaks surface tension, but if there is surface tension, it means the part is not chemically clean..star over.

My experience is the same; very old solution has continued to work.

I did have some trouble on one gun where it wouldn't bite until I left it rusting a long time; and even then it kept a purple color in certain light through a bunch of applications. Some element in the steel alloy I think tends to cause this.

Ditch it and buy some American Formula RustBlue.

Bob

www.rustblue.com

Bobster. Your solution may work GREAT in some areas..But both Roger Green and gave your product a good trial here in WA and came up wanting. I like Gun Godess, but Jerry Fisher can't get good results in the Flathead Valley of MT.

I cannot explain (Nor will I try to) why I've seen these mixed results in CA, WY,WI and WA.

DCPD is most likely right...it's a black art (no pun intended)...you just gotta try them all..and it you move, you may have to start all over.

Or..you can get Angier's book and REALLY go bonkers

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I tried the Mark Lee again and it worked well, as it has in the past. The only change I made was to get the metal hotter before applying, and suspending the metal over the water container with the heat off after applying. I'm thinking perhaps it was simply too dry (relative humidity 30%) on my first attempt, but that is only conjecture

Yep in dry climates you have to force rusting in a mild steam box to get things going. That's why armories and manufacturers of the day did it; they wanted to re-create summertime southern Florida in their Connecticut and German factories during the winter. You as the craftsman have to take control and create your own rusting environment. You can use formulas with HCL but they cause a good bit of after-rusting which has to be neutralized. Try my methods and you will succeed. I can rust blue a gun in a day indoors during the winter with 20-30% RH. I use a steam ripening box and steam pipe conversion. At least 4 passes in an 8 hr day possible which is mostly enough.

Bob
www.rustblue.com

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Bobster. Your solution may work GREAT in some areas..But both Roger Green and gave your product a good trial here in WA and came up wanting. I like Gun Godess, but Jerry Fisher can't get good results in the Flathead Valley of MT.

I cannot explain (Nor will I try to) why I've seen these mixed results in CA, WY,WI and WA.

DCPD is most likely right...it's a black art (no pun intended)...you just gotta try them all..and it you move, you may have to start all over.

Or..you can get Angier's book and REALLY go bonkers