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One of Us |
...everybody says it is the premier custom gun finish but why...does it really protect the gun that much better than hot blueing? Why not a matte hot blue? How does case coloring compare for protection? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Moderator |
These are my opinions, so use them to think about and then form your own. First, color case hardening provides pretty much no protection IMHO, that is why you'll see them clearcoated. I've thought a lot about the hot vs rust blue thing and my current viewpoint is that the major difference is not the iron oxide deposit, but the surface preparation and the resulting physical character of the surface of the steel. IMHO, matte blued finishes will rust first. I believe this is due to the surface being more exposed to oxygen as well as more exposed carbon. Whatever method is used to get the matte surface, it will do so by removing softer material and leaving harder, which usually is because there is more carbon present. Unless kept oiled or otherwise protected, oxygen will find this easier to attack than the more polished (actually I'll stick my neck out and say burnished) rust-blued surface. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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one of us |
The theory behind rust bluing is that it already a coating of polished "rust" on the metal. No further oxidation is possible. As stated above, case colors are a byproduct of the hardening process, and are not intended to offer the metal any surface protection. The clear coat that is often used to protect the colors can also offer good metal protection as well. It depends on the product. Regarding hot bluing, I agree that a matte finish offers less protection the a polished surface. Some of the European rifles, such as the CZ550, have an extremely durable hot blue finish. | |||
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one of us |
In my travels i have found rust bluing to be significantly more durable and rust resistant than hot bouing, with matte hot bluing being the worst. Also, Rust bluing looks significantly better than any other bluing. You have to hold it in your hands to truly appreciate it. Case colors quickly wear off. It has become a fad in th epast few years to color case everything on a gun. Much of it is a very unsound move from an engineering and safety standpoint just to gain some very fragile colors that will wear away in just a few years of use. Much less durable than even matte hot bluing. But the case colored steel is more resistant to rust than un-case hardened steel. Even though the colors wear off, the garder surface underneath resits corrosion better than the bare steel. I for one will be glad when this case coloring fad is dead and gone. | |||
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One of Us |
Marc, Could you please elaborate on the "safety standpoint" issues. I have several firearms cased by Turnbull and have had no safety concerns. Any info would be appreciated Wes | |||
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One of Us |
Just to add a thought...Somewhere in my files, I have an answer from Holland and Holland re color case hardening. The bottom line was they felt heat treatable steels should not be case hardened. Now, I too. have seen plnty of color case hardened stuff from Turnbull, but have not seen a failure. Don Allen mentioned that when hey got stuff back from Turnbull, their tests showed no difference before or after re hardness. In my own experience, I found there to be a very thin case that could be polished thru pretty easily. With Color Case Co, the case is very thick, but warpage can become more apparent with thin parts..You just have to balance what you desire in final results, but I tend to side with Mark and if color casing is desired on something "hot" the customer is on his own | |||
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One of Us |
Having reblued several hundred guns over the past 40+ years I would have to say the old rust blued Remingtons Model 10,11, 12, 17, 31, have been the toughest to break thru the old finish down to bare metal. The early model 870 and 1100 guns are almost as tough. They were hot caustic blued but their setup really put a tough finish on. Bill | |||
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One of Us |
Hurrumphhh! Personally, I'll be glad when this bolt gun fad is dead and gone Glenn | |||
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One of Us |
I used to hot blue for my customers. But my own guns got rust blued. Mine were hunted hard in all kinds of weather and held up extremely well. I hunted with some of my customers and their guns just didn't hold up as well. Price was always the deciding factor. Rust bluing costs more but is well worth the expense, especially if the gun is a nice custom. It looks and wears better. | |||
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One of Us |
IMO, it's the second case-coloring that contains some risk, as more than a few refinished old doubles have had some frame cracking. I'm not a metallurgist - and despite a solid background in Chem, when the metal-savvy guys are talking it might as well be Russian. But I do notice empirical data, and over at gunshop.com we've seen about 1/2 dozen cracked frames on re-cased doubles. Recasing is suspected but not convicted. I planned to CCH my current project (as per the fad), but recently changed my mind based on two friends experience with very slight frame warpage. Not enough warping to re-do the entire frame, but both spent long hours figuring out what warped which way how much | |||
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one of us |
I know that a lot of big names case color tool steel and Mauser actions, but that does not make it right. Even as an undergraduate mechanical engineering student, I knew it was not kosher. After i worked a few years I went back to graduate school and really looked into it. After taking several graduate engineering classes in materials, mechanics, and failure/fatigue, I had the nitty gritty detail on why it was a bad thing to do. I also corresponded whith the man whom I considered to be the "authority" on color case hardening, and he totally agreed. Dr. Oscar Gaddy was an electrical engineer by education, but was a man whose heart was also in color case hardening. He was the only person color case hardening who went beyond experiementing to get the best colors. Oscar spent a great deal of time researching the mechanics of what happened to the steel during case hardening and color case hardening. I would have to dig out some mechanics, theory of elasticity, inelastic deformation, and soem fatigue textbooks from engineering graduate school to give you exact reason that is is a bad idea to go around color case hardening any and everything. I have posted it here before and gotten hate PM's, but I will post it again. It is an usound engineering and safety move to color case harden Mausers and tool steel. I know people do all the time, but it is still a bad thing to do. Hell, I used to ride bulls-another unsound thing to do from a safety standpoint. I would tie myself to a bull and then stick sharpened spurs in his side at th esame time someone else hit him in the ass with a hotshot and hape a rope cinched tight around his tool. I would do that, but i will not color case harden a Mauser action under and circumstance. Does that give you an idea of bad I think it is to color case harden anything for looks? I have had prospects and clients ask me to color case harden Maisers and I tell them it is an unqualified "no." I see HST replied to this post. I had Saeed fix me up and he has it where my profile automatically puts all Cheeseheads on "ignore" so I have no idea what HST posted!!! | |||
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One of Us |
I agree, and the same goes for all breechloaders! Give me a good flintlock any day! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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one of us |
If Swillery gets elected, your wish might become a reality sooner than you think. | |||
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One of Us |
...more 6" PVC and end caps will be sold than ever before. | |||
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One of Us |
Marc: Like, bummer about the anti-cheesehead software, cause I wanted to let you know about the mill and surface grinder I found for you. Oh well. Glenn | |||
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One of Us |
I believe Mr.Darcy Echols has developed&uses a hot blue process that is mighty durable, which is applied to his rifles that in numerous cases are intended to be hunted hard and long. Bluing methods tested for durability by Mr.Echols | |||
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one of us |
Cuz chicks dig it! Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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One of Us |
Turnbull no longer case hardens Mausers. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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one of us |
I like case hardening on a lever rifle lever, a lever on a drop action single shot, a single action .45 LC, hate it on a bolt action rifle. It just isn't right. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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One of Us |
Well, that just might depend on who you are. At Reno-SCI, I asked Mr.TurnBull if he could CCH a new H&Wmagnum mauser receiver I was looking at, He said no. The next day I was talking with RalF Martini at ACGG, whilst handling/discussing one of his rifles built on the same brand mauser action, I asked where would you get it CCH, he said TURNBULL. I mentioned that I was told yesterday that he does not do them, Ralf though that very strange. But who knows maybe just the "official" general Turnbull policy is NO. Personally on a hunting rig,I would not do it. | |||
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one of us |
Probably the company line. I called some while back to ack the same thing and was told by the office person on the phone that they only CCH Dakota actions. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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