257Rock,
I am the proud new owner of a 7X57 Brno 22F given to me as a Christmas present by my wife. I was able to hunt with it a few times in January (thanks to Alabama's long deer season) and have to agree with Kutenaymtnboy to some extent. The bolt handle does cause a need for high rings which combined with the European style stock can be an issue for scope use. Fortunately, it did not get out of hand in my case. The double set triggers are a nuisance for stalk hunting and the safety is somewhat noisy (I don't know how you could possibly lose your bolt because of it). The M70 is a more familiar piece for most American hunters and they would probably be more comfortable with it than a Brno.

All that said, I'd rather have the Brno! It is just way off the scale when it comes to 'neat'! And don't worry about the accuracy. I measured the throat and found that I couldn't load a bullet out far enough in the 7X57 case to touch the rifling. I assumed I'd have to settle for mediocre accuracy at best. Instead it shoots 175 grain Hornady RNs to iron sight POI and the 139 gr Hornady SPs 2" higher. Both group at around 1" with the old Weaver K2.5 I put on it. I even shot two groups with the trigger unset (weight way off my RCBS scale, estimated about 10-12 lbs) and got barely over 1".

If these things are common in Canada, I wish I could come up there and liberate a few!

Hook- There are probably more Brnos in Canada and Europe than the USA but they aren't particularly common anywhere. About 40,000 21/22's were made and about 20,000 ZG-47's, compared to approximately 581,000 pre-64 M-70's and 127,000 Oberndorf Sporters. ZG-47's were not imported into the USA and 21/22's only on a limited basis as a result of cold war politics.

The good old days for U.S. collectors in Canada are pretty much over as both our gun laws and yours now make buying a gun in each other's country a pain in the ass. But, a nice 21-H or 22-H in 7x57 can quite easily be found here for $600.00-$850.00, I just bought one with screwed up triggers and a shortened stock for $300.00; the rarer versions such as the roundbolt 22-F with 60cm. bbl. will go for $1500.00, all CDN. dollars, of course.

I met an older gentleman at the rifle club I used to belong to who had a mint 21-F, short barrel, fullstock, round bolt with dark honey coloured wood in 7x57; I would have traded him my Dakota for that rifle, but, he was a cagey old bugger. He has probably passed on and it went to the RCMP for mandatory destruction as his widow probably didn't know what it was, this happens a lot here.

The loss of the rifle bolt I refered to used to happen quite often to hunters walking through brush as the safety is non bolt locking and the bolt would open, hook on a limb and out it would go as the Mauser bolt latch would apparently catch on the guy's jacket at the same time. I had my first one's bolt open many times so finally sold the rifle, but, Reliable Gun & Tackle of Vancouver, B.C. used to replace guy's bolts every so often and they still tell me about this.

The accuracy with the long throat is typical, all of mine shoot hot Nosler PT. loads well under an inch and so do my ZG-47s; like the rest of you guys, I "need" more of these sweet little rifles.

I'm thinking I should purchase a new used rifle. I am thinking along the lines of a pre 64 model 70 in a 270. But was wondering how they compared to the Brno line of rifles. If I was to get a Brno it would probly be a 7x57. Not having ever seen or handled a Brno in say a model 21 22 or a ZKK I would like to know if someone could do a comparison or these rifles for me. What I want is a slick working gun with about a 22 inch barrel give or take 2 inches. These seem to be in about the same price range. If theres anything you think would fit I would also like to know. I know i'm not giving alot of information I just want something that has a high potential of working smoothly while feeding. Thanks Tony

Ah, a chance to hold forth on one of my favourite topics!

The short answer here is to buy a Pre-64 Std. Wt. in .270, fit it with a High-Tech stock and good scope and develope a load. The light synthetic stock will eliminate the excess weight of the old 70 and a nice Std. will cost about 2/3 the price of an FWT and will shoot like you will not believe.

Now, I own many classic rifles, including Brnos, 21, 22 and ZG-47 and have owned a bunch of ZKKs which are not in the same class as the older ones,but, can be made into fair working rifles.The 21 & 22 rifles need a safety change and I hate the double set triggers, so, those have to be changed and the ZG-47 is extremely pricey on your side of the border and 7x57s and .270s are very seldom found in it,so, the old 70 is a better choice.

I will say that the "roundbolt" 22H I found a few years ago is a fantastic rifle, but, they are ultra-rare and I have only seen one other and heard of four in 40 yrs. of gun insanity. The flatbolt 21 and 22 rifles in 7x57 are neat, but, they require high rings and with the low comb, they are not easy to shoot. I have a pair of them with the short barrels which I intend to get restocked with Mannlicher-style stocks with a comb height suitable for someone who is not a Giraffe.

If, you can find a 22-H with the 60cm bbl. in really nice shape, in 7x57, you will have a nice piece, but, change the safety before you lose your bolt walking through the bush.Leupold is now making nice rings for these and they will shoot Nosler Partition bullets into half-inch groups all day, at least the four I've owned would.

Finally, if your taste is such that only a Pre-64 or old Brno really satisfies you and I prefer the old Brnos to my quite lovely Dakota,btw, I would not buy a ZKK as there is nothing that you can do to these that will make them really feel like "your" rifle, if you know what I mean.

You could also check out a new cz 550 in the mentioned calibers you may be pleasently suprised also they are a closer rendition of the M98 than the M70 is.

The Brno 21 and 22 series are true small ring 98's. They are commercial versions of the famous G.33/40. 1942-48 models will have the stripper clip guide, 1949-55 models will have square bridges for the CZ550 style high rings. The 42-48 models will need a side mount if you wish to use a scope (some have claw mounts).

All models had butterknife handles, low bolt safeties and double set triggers when they left the factory. Any that do not will obviously have been altered at some point.

They are among the finest commercial rifles ever made, comparable to the pre-war Oberndorf Mausers and the 1950-55 Mannlicher-Schoenauers.

The model 70 is a knock-off of the 54, which was a knock-off of the '03, which was knock-off of the 98. Why settle for second best when you can have the original.

I actually own a matching numbered Brno 22-H, originally chambered in 7x57 which I had re-chambered to .280 Remington. This rifle has exactly the same bolt handle as the ZG-47 and, as I have said, there were a small number of these manufactured in 1956, just as the small ring series gave way to the large ring ZG-47.

The earlier series of these did not have the double flat top and most of those which were imported into Canada did not have stripper clips, either. They will accept top mounts for small ring Mausers and have finely matted receiver top surfaces. I have also seen single trigger examples of these rifles with the factory bottom metal cut for single trigger only.

There are probably more of these rifles in Canada than anywhere, they are quite common at gunshows here and I have examined dozens of them since I bought my first one in 1965. I would agree with the statement concerning their quality-as I have already said-but, the comment about the Pre-64 Mod. 70 is nonsense.

The little Mausers are fine for cartridges based on the original cases up to a .30-06, but, one cannot use a .375, a .338 or a .416 Rem. in them where 70s will handle these with ease, as well as Swifts and Hornets.The Pre-64 Mod. 70 is and was, dollar for dollar, the most practical, useful and reliable production bolt action rifle ever made, period.

I have known many real, professional B.C. and western Alberta outdoorsmen during the past 50 yrs. who used these rifles until they were silver with wear without ever having a single malfunction. I have used my own in wilderness conditions that most people never will see and cannot even imagine and they ALWAYS work.

The safety on the 21 and 22 series Brnos is a mechanical abortion and the double-set triggers stop functioning in snow and cold weather; I have experienced this. The forestocks frequently split and the wood on them is usually junk. The metal parts are superb, once you put on a Wisner or Gentry safety and a Timney or Dayton-Traister trigger, but, the Mod. 70 comes with an excellent safety and the best trigger for hunting rifles ever designed.The Model 70 stocks are much stronger and seldom split, they are easier to handle recoil with as well.

All in all, they are both fine rifles, but, a Mod. 70 is easier to work with as it came from the factory, at least for serious hunting and utility purposes.

Gentlemen

fantastic topic. I have three zg-47's and this makes me need some more sweet brno's. I had two ZG-47's in 270, very nice Talley makes a nice mount for the Brno's and Burgess rings is even nicer.


kutenaymtnboy- NEVER, NEVER a timmney on a Brno. It's a crime to put such el cheapo trigger on a sweet brno. A kepplinger or blackburn is recommended.

Cheers
/ JOHAN

You are quite right and I extend my most humble apologies to the entire community of Brno afficionados; I intend to rebuild mine with Blackburn triggers and bottom-metal, just talked to him a couple of weeks ago.

I also "need" several more sweet Brnos and a few more Mannlicher-Schoenauers as well; I wouldn't mind a second drilling and another O/U combo gun, perhaps a double 9.3x74R and a........

Seriously, I also agree with the gentleman who suggested a look at a CZ-550; with a little work, these can be damned nice hunting rifles.

I always choose a 98 Mauser type rifle. Top to bottom, FN Deluxe, pre-64 M-70, Oberndorf Sporter, Brno 21-H and Brno ZG-47:

Thanks to everyone. I have considered the CZ 550 American in 7x57. The problem the way I see it is I'm putting a MRC 1999 rifle in 7x57 together for my son. This gun will be set up to shoot 140 gr. bullets the best [I hope]. From what I have found out about the CZ. Is that they have a long throat and a fairly fast rifle twist. If we are both going to shoot 7x57's I would want to be able to work up a load that would work in both guns. Probably to much to ask for. My son is twelve so I don't want to have to worry If we have the right ammo for the right gun. So maybe I will look for a 270 I a pre 64. I'm sure it will work very well for what I want. Thanks again Its sure is nice to have all you experts that are willing to answer Questions.

THe CFO has insisted that I ask you to STOP putting up photos of all that great wood. She says no money this spring for more guns and that's that...so STOP looking Well I never listen to her any how

Dang, what kinda wood is that, Chick?

Kutenaymtnboy, I just have a hard time envisioning non-locking bolt safeties being a serious problem. I hunt in some of the thickest stuff imaginable around here in Alabama and cannot imagine losing a bolt. Several of my rifles have non-locking safeties and, on a very few occasions, have found that the bolt has lifted slightly. When that has happened, I just automatically push it down as the rifle is shouldered. The only incident that caused a problem was the loss of a 45-70 round when a vine/limb/briar or something yanked open the action of my No. 1 Ruger while going through some thick stuff.

Oh well, Murphy's law does apply in most every situation at one time or another. Losing an unlocked bolt of a mauser action rifle certainly is a possibility. The combination of events that would lead to such a happening is mind boggling, especially for the hunter not to realize what was happening and pausing to check it out. The fact that it obviously has happened at times just proves ole Murphy right.

However, it is such a long shot that I wouldn't let a Brno slip through my hands because of it. I have also converted several sporterized 1903s, military 98s, and one Swede to the Chapman side swing safety (two position) and have never had an issue with them.

Hook67,
It is English walnut, marble cake. I can not imagine the bolt coming back and the bolt release being moved simultaneously. I can not even imagine the bolt release moving with that little effort or from being caught on anything. It is a complete non issue to me.

Well, the country in B.C. is just a mite tougher than in the southern U.S. and it has happened; picture pulling yourself up a near vertical slope by the buckbrush in snow about mid-thigh depth for 3000 ft. elevation in below zero weather. This is how we hunted Mule Deer in the West Kootenays where I am from and people lost rifle bolts from Brnos, I nearly did myself.

Reliable Gun & Tackle in Vancouver, B.C. has been in business for over 50 yrs. and I have dealt with them for more than 30 of those years; they have often told me of ordering replacement bolts and fitting them to Brno 21-22 rifles. I have no reason to doubt their word as their reputation in western Canada is without flaw.

I will not use any rifle in which the action is not locked closed for bush work; you need to remember that my requirements are different than those of a hunter in flat country. I have no use for anything other than CRF, locking safety, repeating rifles in my hunting and I have tried them all.

I started working alone in Grizzly country in 1965 and having spent many summers from April to September completely alone with one rifle to depend on in the mountains here. In many of these places, if I was injured, help could not reach me for a day or two due to terraine and weather. If, you have been alone within less than 20 yds. of a Grizzly as I have many times, you tend to have rather definite opinions concerning rifles and their operational features.

I must say that the rifle shown by Customstox is very lovely, I would prefer a single trigger and Wisner safety, but, each to his own. I had the D.T. on my first 21-H freeze up due to moisture in November deer hunting in the Kootenays and never trusted them since.However, I could probably stand to have that rifle in my gunsafe-my wife would probably eviserate me if I tried to buy it, though.

kutenaymtnboy,
I am not in a position to discuss what the conditions are like in the Southern U.S. as I hunt in the middle fork of the Salmon in Idaho in mid November. Our camp is at 4200 feet and we hike daily to 7500 +/- and temperatures are usually well below freezing. Tough weather is not a Canadian exclusive. I am not saying that losing a bolt can't happen but I think I would have better odds with the lottery. It can happen with a model 70 given the right circumstances.

As far as the rifle, if I had it to do over again I would put a single trigger in it and Blackburn bottom metal. The safety will do me just fine.

Middle Fork Terrain

Kutenaymtnboy, I'll take your word for it. As I said, I am a big believer in Murphy....I've seen him in action too many times not to be. I gotta say, under the conditions you are hunting in, where utter reliability has to be there, I'd probably go with a military 98 mauser action myself. I doubt there'd be a scope on it, unless there were very dependable backup irons involved.

On the other hand, I'd argue that our thickets, swamps, and briar patches are the equal your wild country with respect to causing problems with equipment. The difference is that when we have a problem, we don't have as many bitey, scratchy animals around as you do to make us pay for it. Also, it just means a spoiled afternoon hunt instead of a three day walk out of the wilds to get it fixed.

I still cannot imagine how so many people can lose rifle bolts in the woods. Maybe I should be grateful that I can choose my hunting rifle without having to consider, and take allowance for, every possible thing that can go wrong with it.

I actually am embarassed to say I lost the bolt on the first mauser my dad gave me that way. Backpacking in the day before deer season.

I cannot say that I worry too much about mosquitoes during hunting season, but, in the northern parts of B.C. and Alberta during forest fire season, they are truely horrible as are the Blackflies, Bulldogs and worst of all, the no-see-ums. The flies are very bad here in the early Elk season and during sheep and goat season, this is probably why a guy has to drink that beer, eh.....

I would honestly say that I have had the most reliable performance in the bush from old Mod. 70s which is why I am so fond of them. I have quite a few rifles, but, I just find the old 70s to be such dependable and consistently accurate rifles that I trust them the most.

Customstox-that is very nice country in your photo, it looks much like the Chilcoten area of west-central B.C. It is much drier than where I grew up, by the look of the forest cover, and I have had more problems with rifles due to moisture than anything else. I completely agree, any rifle can screw up and I also think that many of the guys who did lose bolts were not as knowledgeable and competent gun handlers as you and others who post on this forum; most guys used to go hunting halfdrunk, too, when I started.

BUT-you have to stop posting these pictures of these fantastic rifles you build, you are driving many of us even more nuts than we already are!

The Brno 21 and 22 are the finest commercial rifles ever produced in the history of gundom....They are truly a work of art with polished rails, small ring action double square bridge Mausers..

As much as I love the old pre 64 M-70, and I own a few of them, they simply not compare in anyway form or manner to the 21 and 22s...

Now some may prefer them and thats fine, but taken part by part the brnos own the championship belt...

I have said exactly the same thing about the Brnos for years and their finish level is much superior to a Mod. 70; I love mine and intend to buy more and have several light weight custom rifles built from them.

BUT, nobody, not even Ray, whose opinons I have developed great respect for in the few months I have been on this forum, is ever going to convince me that those finicky little triggers are better than a Pre-64 trigger in cold, wet and harsh hunting conditions. Now, if they had developed the ZG-47 trigger and it's excellent safety for the 21 and 22 series, THAT would be as close to perfect as it likely gets!

As to the ZG-47 trigger, it would not be my first choice if I had to transport a rifle in the fashion described. I would suggest consulting a gunsmith as to what options exist concerning possible replacements or modifications for the factory trigger, if you are unhappy with it. I replace all my ZG-47 safeties with Mod. 70 style ones, because that is what I am used to although I consider the original safety to be a work of art in terms of manufacture and they certainly work well.

The Brno shown on the bottom exemplifies the point that I made earlier in this discussion; there seem to be more variations of these than most of us know of. I have never seen one like that, but, that would be my prefered configuration for a hunting rifle. I think that Brno rifles from the "good old days" are probably similiar to Mannlicher-Schoenauers in that there are variations on the main models that were made in small quantities and are not well known.

I think that there are too many of these Brnos in Sweden and all you good people should send them over here to Canada to show we simple Canucks what real rifles are. You can also send over any Eckermann-Husqvarna double rifles and commercial Husqvarns that you are tired of!

That bottom rifle really shows the truth in Ray's point about Brnos, what rifle could be better for hunting than that little jewel. I am NOT, btw, an expert on these or any other rifles, I just enjoy genuine, functional quality.

The ZG is my favorite bolt rifle but there are two design flaws IMO. The bolt shank often interfers with scope bells requiring the use of higher than normal mounts. It should have been recessed where it mates with the bolt body, and possibly swept back, like the M-70. The trigger mounts with one pin, allowing it to pivot at the front, thus requiring a tight fit with the stock to hold it in place. Some folks don't care for the safeties, but I like their look and they function like a safety should by locking the bolt.

I love the double set triggers in the big bow trigger guard of the Brno 21 and 22....The set trigger is the best trigger in the world for running shots on game IMO...

I hate to say it but the more I hunt dangerous game the less I like the 3 pos. m-70 trigger, however I would have nothing else on my deer, elk and plainsgame rifles or any gun I use horseback or carry in a truck window rack, simply because there are certain places I hunt elk where I will carry a M-70 loaded in the saddle scabbard for short distances and same with deer in my PU...You gotta be fast in these spots and they have some real big trophies, so I do what I have to...

I'm pissed off with you guys. I've been quietly looking for these Brno's for a while now and have acquired one so far, but now that you guys have piqued everbodys interest, its now going to be that much harder to find another one.

As for losing bolts, I lost one out of my M70, but found it after a frantic search. Learned one thing, never walk around in the bush with an open bolt.

Hart

Hart, my friend, I hate to tell you this, but, no account gun bums like me have been more or less quietly looking for those little gems since the '60s! I have seen more really nice ones for sale lately, here in B.C., than there ever used to be and the prices haven't risen in many years. It's much like Pre-64s, when I was actively searching them out and would willingly pay top dollar, you couldn't find them; then, when I decided that I have enough, they are everywhere and the prices have dropped, too.

There is a guy in Rossland, Jack Malchow, who horsetrades guns and he very frequently has nice Brnos at fair prices.

I hear you were fondling a ZG-47 in 9.3x62 at last years two day show and didn't tell me about it, and someone else scooped it up. Still have not found one.

Hart

Well, what actually happened is that it appeared in "Access" about a year and a half before and B.R. bought it; my info. was that it was surface pitted, so, I wasn't interested. Then, he sold it to Elmer at the two day show, two years ago and Elmer told me that he would sell it to me, when he tired of it. A year later, George from AGS had it on his table at what I thought was too much money, you know how it goes with the gunshow wheelerdealers......

I know of another in Vancouver, but, I do not know the owner's name and have been told that he resents enquiries about selling, so, I have decided to have a short barrel .30-06 ZG I have re-barreled to 9.3x62, I want one to use, I could care less about collecting guns.

I have honestly been interested in these Brnos since 1965 and have examined a lot of them, but, I have never seen another in 9.3x62-just about as fine a Moose-Elk-bear defense rifle as one could want, IMO.

BTW, if you know Thom N., very tall, curly headed Mauser nut, ask him as he often knows where a ZG can be found.