I'm in the process of finishing off a reloading room and am going to add a new safe. Any recomendations in regards to brands, features, etc?

Thanks,

Jeff

I've got a Liberty Safe and it seems to be a good safe at a decent price. Their distribution ware house is close by and I got a discount on a slightly scratched one.

I whole heartedly recommend the electric touch key pad instead of the manual combination lock. Much more convenient.

Get one at least 3 times bigger than you think you need. Mine was only twice as big as I needed and now it's too small.

Regards

Elmo

'National Security' gets my vote........

AD

A lot of emphasis is put on the door of the safe, which is certainly important. However, the easy way to get into a safe is simply to take a 7" angle grinder and cut through the side, back, or even top (after all, you've conveniently provided a 110v outlet right there by the safe for the use of the miscreant who wants to break into your safe.) Enclosing the safe, even if just with framing and drywall, forces the burglar to attack the much stronger door. A safe simply standing against the wall or in a corner and bolted to the floor is much more vulnerable than one with only its door exposed.

My advice is to buy a less expensive safe, but make it more secure by spending the extra money to "build it in", or better yet, entomb it in 4 inches of concrete.

Nearly all of the manufacturers use one of two brands of lock mechanisms. So as long as the door is reasonably sturdy and the lock-up is reasonbly resistant, most of the safes are pretty much the same. By the way, enclosing the safe with drywall or concrete will bump up its fire resistance by a significant amount in addition to increasing its security.

Any safe can be defeated -- all you're buying is time. If you have the space and the place, you can buy more time for the same price with carpentry/masonry than with extra steel and locking lugs in the door.

If you live near a large town, find a lock & safe company and ask about trade-ins or used safes. Most big dealers have a second business to sell off what they upgrade/buy/repo where you can get some good deals from time to time.

http://www.graffundersafes.com/

Their safes are of much heavier construction than the typical name brands.

quote:

tiggertate: find a lock & safe company and ask about trade-ins or used safes

Look for a TL30 or TL15 rated safe from a defunct jewelry or department story. Much greater burglary protection than "gun" safes.

I got my safe from Smith Security Safes.

Just over the line into Ohio.
He can custom build a safe to your spec or take one off the floor.

He will also sell you a safe that is not finished inside so you can finish it to your design and save a few $$

Johnch

Liberty,
Mine holds 54 long guns!

Zanotti Armor!

Comes apart to move. Just as secure as the others when assembled.

I'm very happy with my Fort Knox. They have a model for every budget. I went with the Titan. It's over 1800 pounds and it has a 10 guage steel liner that is fully welded. It's a safe within a safe. More time to get in for sure. I really like my electric lock. I can get in , in about 3 secounds and I can give out the combo if I need to and then just delete that code when I no longer wish them to have access.

Advice from a former claims adjuster: Don't think that the average gun safe is going to stop anybody but the true amateur. A few minutes with a saws-all (sp?) and your safe is open. Follow the advice to build your safe into something. If you are going to put it into a closet or behind a typical 2x4 wall remember to cross drill the studs and put rebar in the wall. This will stop the guy with the chain saw when his chain hits the steel bar he was not expecting. One client did it an unusual way and it worked. He bought a fancy safe and left it out where it could be seen. He put sensors in it to trigger a silent alarm. The crooks spent their time trying to break into the visibile safe that was empty and never found the ugly safe that was hidden in a closet with his guns inside. You might leave a few low value guns in the visible safe just to satisfy the theives that they got your guns.

If you enclose your safe in a closet, line the closet with at least three layers of drywall or better yet concrete backer board. Also put drywall on the back side of the closet door. This drywall provides decent protection from heat. Also, never hit a hot safe with water from a hose. It will instantly cool and suck all the moisture inside. When you finally get the safe open all your guns will be rusted. Baked and dry is better than baked and wet.

Also, MOST homeowner policies only provide around $500 coverage for property like guns. You need a rider, commonly called an inland marine floater added to your policy and insure your rifles for a stated value. Make life easier for the claims adjuster and he can then justify to his boss why he is paying your so much for your toys. Photograph ALL of your valuables and keep this at some other location than your house. Do a video walk-through of your house and open every cupboard, closet, storage area, and record everything you own. Keep this offsite also. If enough people would benefit from it I can write and post a guide to how to be able to maximize (legally) your claim if you ever loose your house. Most of you are probably underinsured and will think your are getting screwed when your house burns down and the insurance company offers you far less than you expect.

Speaking of putting your safe in an enclosure...in some areas junk metal dealers can get you expanded metal materials such as old, used "landing mats" for pretty reasonable prices. a cage welded out of them can make even getting TO the safe walls pretty tough for even the above average crook. (I lined both the walls and roof of my whole shop with welded-together landing mats the last time I built a shop.)

I would also suggest building a vault and buying a vault door similar to those used in banks (but smaller), rather than a "gun safe". An easy to make, but immensely strong structure is to build your vault of out of 8x8x16 building blocks. Then run re-rod down through EVERY hole in the blocks, and pump the blocks full of grout. Vault ceiling can be done the same way. With a bank vault-type door, you're gonna have a pretty strong hide-away.

Don't forget, though, the "home-invader" types of today just stick THEIR gun in your ear (or your wife's or kid's ear) and say "Open the expletive-deleted door, MF!" You really should consider in advance how & if your gonna deal with that, too.

quote:

Don't forget, though, the "home-invader" types of today just stick THEIR gun in your ear (or your wife's or kid's ear) and say "Open the expletive-deleted door, MF!" You really should consider in advance how & if your gonna deal with that, too.

My Fort Knox has a time delay lock where after you do the combo it has to sit undisturbed for 15 minutes and then a 20 second widow opens to open the door. Most gun to your head type robbers won't wait around for a time delayed opening. They usually just want to get in and out.

In reply to Old Elk Hunter,
When I bought my safe Fort Knox at that time has NEVER had one of their safes broken into in a home owners residence. The only ones ever broken into were models below the Defender and they were taken to a worksop to be opened. I am a welder fabricator and have used every metal working tool ever devised. I can run a torch better than most. To break into my safe would take about about an hour to clear away the walls and cabinets and then at least another hour with a big hot saw to make an opening big enough to get at all the contents of my safe. By then the noise of the demolition and the interconnected smoke detectors direct hot wired into my house would have the neighbors over for a look long before they ever got in. A sawzall would take hours. The outer and inner walls of my safe are 5/16 of an inch thick combined. Have you ever tried cutting even 1/4 inch plate with a sawzall? You better pack a lunch. You are going to need a few blades on hand as well. My safe is also fire rated to 1680 degrees for 90 minutes.

As a former Insurance Agent, I feel safe enough with my protection now that I saved $200 a year by not insuring my guns anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
If enough people would benefit from it I can write and post a guide to how to be able to maximize (legally) your claim if you ever loose your house.

Old Elkie:

I think a lot of people would benefit from it! If you wouldn't mind taking the time, I'd love to have the benefit of your experience.

Thanks!
Stone

Elkhunter

That would be much appreciated.

Fire is also a big concern where I live. What can a guy reasonably expect as far as Safe performance in a fire?.

Thanks

Elmo

quote:

If enough people would benefit from it I can write and post a guide to how to be able to maximize (legally) your claim if you ever loose your house. Most of you are probably underinsured and will think your are getting screwed when your house burns down and the insurance company offers you far less than you expect.

Go ahead. I am interested.

Here in CT a house can be insured for replacement value. You can also hire a representative to present and negotiate your case before the insurance co. This is the key to getting all of your value back.

quote:

Originally posted by Hired Gun:
[QUOTE] Don't forget, though, the "home-invader" types of today just stick THEIR gun in your ear (or your wife's or kid's ear) and say "Open the expletive-deleted door, MF!" You really should consider in advance how & if your gonna deal with that, too.

My Fort Knox has a time delay lock where after you do the combo it has to sit undisturbed for 15 minutes and then a 20 second widow opens to open the door. Most gun to your head type robbers won't wait around for a time delayed opening. They usually just want to get in and out.
--------------------------------



Don't count on it!! As you may have noticed with car-jackers, if they don't get what they want almost instantly, they frequently decide to KILL you, THEN walk away.

Anyone prepared to break into an occupied home while not knowing if the occupant may be armed, is not your typical stealthy burglar who just wants to get in and get out un-noticed.

Usually, they are NOT alone, either. I feel that anyone who has not thought through a plan of response to various types of home attacks, and has not communicated it to his/her spouse and children (and live-in seniors who may be there too), has not done all they should to insure the safety of their loved ones.

I wouldn't pay this guy's price but it would make a nice gun safe! BankVault

I have a 60 year old Mosler safe door that I am installing in my own safe room,,,,

Inside the room is 3 feet by 10 feet with an 7 foot ceiling, Walls are 12 inch solid concrete with lotsa rebar sheets,,,,had some leftover from a concrete dam job,,,,,1/2 inch rebare that is pre welded into a four inch grid. The roof is the same construction, with a sheet of 1/8th inch steel for a ceiling held up by resting on the walls all the way around and 4 cross members of 3 inch angle iron,,floor is the middle of a concrete slab,,,yep it's a nice secure hole.

2 questions

1,,,what is a good insulator that I could hang on the inside for heat ptotection,,,,,sheetrock? fiberglass board??? what,,,

2,,,I need a dehumidifier,,,,how do the glodenrods work????

I have a 4 foot florecent light and an outlet inside already,,,,,Best part is that it is in my workshop and well hid behind several ceiling high bulky items,,,,,

Go to Academy or Basspro if you want a 22 gun Fire Safe. They usually sell them for 500-600 dollars. Academy may be cheaper.

I have a 24 gun Winchester fire safe w/ a digital combo. It's a pretty nice safe, about like most of the others.

Browning makes some fine safes as well.

If you are not looking for a fire proof safe. You can get the plain steel safes pretty cheap. I have one of the plain steel 8 gun safes bolted to the stud wall in my closet. And of coarse the ole' wood gun cabinet in the reloading room w/ the kiddy proof lock on the door, not much for deterring burglars but, it looks pretty .

Alot of the fire safes sre made by the same manus.

Get ready to invite a few buddies over if you buy a fire safe. The ole' 500 lb dolly almost had flat tires when we wheeled my Winchester in.


You can also have a welding shop build a safe for you. A 3/16" steel box then 2-3 layers of 5/8" Fire Rock and another 3/16" steel box inside of that will make a good fire safe. Make a steel door similar except leave the outside steel where it will over lap 1/2-3/4" onto a fiber(fireproof) seal. If you do it that way you can have it built to what ever dimensions you like. It's gonna cost ya a pretty penny but, it would last from now on.

Good Luck!

Reloader

PPosey,

W/ 12" of concrete, what the heck do you want w/ insulation? That Concrete is a pretty good insulator.

Reloader

PPosey, GoldenRods are simply heaters, work by raising the inside temp to prevent condensation, regardless of the ambient humidity. I doubt if they make one big enough to heat the inside of your vault, but maybe. Another way to heat is with light bulbs. Bank vaults control humidity with ventilators.

Ok, I will write up a users guide to home insurance claim handling. Give me about a week and I will post it on this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
Ok, I will write up a users guide to home insurance claim handling. Give me about a week and I will post it on this forum.

'Preciate it, Elkie! Will watch for it.

12 inches of concrete is pretty good security but concrete cunducts heat and cold....I'm thinking a couple layers of fire rated sheetrock,,,,whats the difference in it and regular sheetrock???? I plan on storing guns, electronic data, slides, photo equipement, and film negatives as well as paper files and photo's,,,,

It is real humid down here in the south east and even more so in the mountains where I live,,,every morning my house is fogged in till 9-10am. About 9:30 this morning, leather boots mold if you just set them in the closet, metal rust fast, and paper gets all funky. I may have to set a small dehumidifier in there....Knowing my luck that mother would shortout and catch on fire!!!!!

If it was mine I would wire in a wall heater and put in a thermostat to control it. Set it at 70 degrees and leave it alone. A dehumidifier would be a great idea. Just dont set the humidity too low or you will hurt your wood stocks. Around 65 percfent should be okay. When that vault is new I bet you pull a gallon a day of water out of there. Just the heater and a small circulation fan will keep water from condensing on your guns. My next house is getting a concrete vault roon at least 10x10. Also put in an interconnected smoke detector with the other one in your bedroom. That way if something is up in the vault you will be the first to know. Sounds like a call to the electrician is in order.

The drywall is all the same but it will do nothing to insulate from warm to cold or from a fire that penetrates that concrete. The only thing it will do is give you a nice finished looking wall to paint. If you fur out the walls with 2x4's you would have room for R-12 fiberglass insulation under the drywall. It would take a small load off of your power bill to heat it.

Mmmmm I hadn't thought about tying in a smoke detector that would be easy to do all the ones in the house are tied together anyway,,,mow what would be funny is to tie the smoke detector into a door based alarm,,,,open door detector goes off....,,,,

Yes if the fire gets through 12 inches of concrete the sheetrock will be nothing,,,,I've worked on a couple of jobs where we had fiberglass sheeting,,,kinda like the stuff they build heat duct main line outa,,,,wonder if that might provide a heat/air barier if the concrete cracked,,,,,

PPosey,

We use Fire Rock and Regular Rock all of the time and I've really never noticed a difference in the two besides the label. I would imagine the Fire Rock has a different material on the Covering.

That Duct Board would probably work but, Man, it would get quite pricey. You would still have to cover it w/ something as well. I believe I'd just go w/ Fire Rock. Are you going to use an adhesive to apply it? Liquid nails is hard to beat for a Concrete to sheetrock bond but, It's probably not going to do any good if the walls heat up during the event of a fire.

Reloader

I can get 4 sheets 4x10 foot each of the 1 inch duct board for $140, I think I will put it then fire rock,,,Put the foil side of the duct board towards the concrete and taping the seems in it with the real foil duct tape,,,I may just put the fire rock on top of the duct board and let the fire rock rest on the floor and screw it to the concrete but not real snug....

Time to get materials and play some,,,,

After reading all these posts, I'm a little surprised that nobody mentioned hiding the damn thing.

Like a gun, it's best kept hidden from the criminals until you're ready to use it.

My vote would definitely be with the vault door and cinder block construction, but hidden in the closet, family room, or garage, where you'd damn well have to know where it's at before you could begin your breaking in phase.

My next house I'm hoping to get built within the next couple of years will have a built-in vault with a 100 yard range underneath the house and garage. Been working on these plans for a while.
I'll basically build my log house over the top of the tunnel that's made of concrete block....That'll give me an area for shooting and protecting the guns. When the robbers show up, they'll know there's guns there, but they won't have a clue where.
By the time they might figure out, if there lucky, the cops will be the ones that find em.

Once the fireboard is in place and you have the fire hazard under control surely you are going with a 2" layer of welded AR plate full lining to stop the guy with his cordless hammer drill from chipping his way in and to be safe I think another 1/2 of stainless plate welded in will stop the torch attack once they breach the concrete and armor plate. You know, They make this stuff called refractory cement that is fireproof. They use it to line kilns and fire pipes. If you put 6" of this stuff over the outside of your safe you could re-enter the atmosphere inside the safe and not even break a sweat. Some of that stuff will hold out 20,000 degrees for continuous duty and you can still put you hand on the backside of 4†of it. An automatic 100 pound Halon system might be good if you weren’t going to be home to protect the inside from any kind of fire that starts inside. It is also assumed there are floor pressure switches. Laser guard beams and infrared sensors all built into the monitored security system. Anything less than all this you might as well put them under your mattress.

In seriousness, has anybody ever built a vault in a simple 2'x6' closet? Couldn't safely weld inside it so putting up plate and welding together wouldn't work. Is there a way to do this after the house is built?

My safe is 8ga., heavy duty but ugly sob made by local company that makes them for cops and military. non-fire lined since when I bought it I lived in a mobile home and my logic was the mobile would burn so fast the safe would barely get warm

Prices have gone up so much that building a vault is the best way, both for storage capacity and for price. But there is no room to built onto the house, garage is full, if I built one it would be seperate from the house.

Anybody thought of or done a below ground vault? I am going to put up a shed in the back yard and wonder if the wife would go for me digging a huge pit first, pouring 4 walls, capping with the cement base for the shed, and then have a ladder going down and a vault door. thoughts?

Red

I've seen a few converted closets, but I would have a hard time calling them a vault. Most of them involved multiple layers of sheetrock for fire resistance and a heavily reinforced door.

One was interesting, but it would take up some room. Line the closet walls with cinderblock and fill the gaps with rebar and grout as described above. The roof is another problem, but could be done. Reinforce the door and it would take a good while to sledgehammer through. Pre-made high strength panels are used for commercial/bank vaults. If you could live with a size that fit through the door, you could have them made. They bolt together on the inside, and are quite secure, as well as quite expensive I'm sure.

If you've got the money, tear out the closet wall and have something built in.

YOu could weld in a closet,,,,Errr I could,,,just keep a water bottle handy,,,,best to do it during construction,,,if it it not on a slab you have to take into account the safe falling either to another floor or into the subfloor in a fire, also it is easy to cut through a sub floor.,,,I bet mine weight,,,,,well I'm not sure,,,3.5 yards of concrete in the walls and roof,,,,,3x9 1/4th steel plate for a cieling,,,lotsa rebar,,,,,then the vault door,,,,probably 1.5 yards of crete in the footer and slab undernieth,,,,,,its heavvvvvy

And I keep my cutting torches and hammer drills in the vault,,,,

along with a pile of other $$$$ tools.

Mine is hidden,,,you would have to be looking to find it, and there is a nasty suprise for anyone who moves the door without throwing a switch accross the room,,,,I just like to tinker