The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Dalys ProFinGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Has anybody used this for a stock finish? I've used Benmatte and I'm told this is similiar but with more solids. I'm thinking it may dry harder and be a little easier to flatten the shine. Thanks. Rob p.s. I could have swore I posted this earlier, but couldn't find it. So, if it's a repeat, I apologize. | ||
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Dempsy, I have used it. I like BenMatte better. Profin dries fast, a bit too fast for me. | |||
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How does profin seafin? Sorry, I went idgit for a moment. I meant to say, how does it differ? Brain Fart. | |||
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Last Spring, I grew a mild obsession with varnish both for a personal woodworking project I embarked upon and for my stock finish perfectionist nature. I ordered the CAS sheet on any varnish that the company would send me or give me information on. I informally tested several finishes and sheens. Basically you want the solids. The rest is usually mineral spirits which evaporate- plus mineral spirits are cheap and you can buy your own instead of having them already mixed in with you varnish which you probably had shipped to you... Daly's ProFin is a blend of urethane and alkyd resins which dry hard and fast to a glossy finish- 30% solids... I have a note that says "SDH" of this forum currently uses this finish. A better bet may be Daly's SeaFin Super Spar- phenolic alkyd marine varnish with UV protectors which if I understand my notes protects the finish from UV degradation and not the wood... It's 45% solids. Daly's Benmatte is tung oil, linseed oil and urethane resin- does it contain silica flatteners??? 30% solids... We've seen the excellent results of this stuff as a topcoat... I have a can of Waterlox Original Marine I'm experimenting with now. Might be the best varnish I've ever used. This stuff is a superb blend of phenolic resins and "hand processed" tung oil with UV inhibitors. Drys sloooow so it soaks into the wood- 49% solids, the highest I've found yet. Gives great depth to the grain but drys to a glassy shine. I haven't yet rubbed out a stock with this finish on it... The non-marine version of Waterlox is used to finish gym floors. I like the idea of soaking the stock in well diluted spar varnish until the finish builds on the surface then setting it up to dry thouroughly. Then sanding and scraping it all off. Spar varnish is tough stuff and the better varnish you use the harder this task will be. Then, you can apply thin coats of basically anything to get the proper look- Benmatte, Man O War Semigloss, even hand rubbed on Waterlox doesn't have that harsh gloss, Linspeed oil, hell even wax... | |||
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DeeBee, Your mind follows greatness. Scrollcutter and my old friend Maurice Ottmar did the same thing you are talking about with a marine varnish as a base. He had been using Sea Fin for all phases and it gave a very nice finish. He finished one gun for a customer who took it hunting at 12,000 feet and all the filled pores opened up. He refinished it using Valspar Marine Spar varnish 3001 with Bakelite. I have his last gallon. The lable ssys it is composed of 54.7% Linseed Tung Phenolic resin, 44.7% Aliphatic Hydrocarbons ( I believe those are not allowed on the Atkins low carbo diet) and .6% driers. He would soak that into the stock, let it dry and then scrape it back to the surface. It normally fills the pores. If not he would do it one more time and scrape again. Then he finished with BenMatte. | |||
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Have you ever heard of using epoxy as the base coat? Spar varnish was, of course, originally intended for marine use. When used on "brightwork" (varnished and polished woodwork) on boats, straight spar varnish has to be sanded down and refinished on roughly a yearly basis -- depends on climatic conditions, but a lot of ongoing maintenance regardless. The modern way of building wooden boats was mainly developed by the Gougeon brothers, and is known as the WEST system (wood expoxy saturation technique -- but WEST is also the brandname of their particular epoxy products). By encapsulating wood veneers with epoxy and laying them up to form boat hulls, the Gougeons developed something that is kind of a cross between a traditional wood hull and a fiberglass hull. Such cold-molded WEST system hulls are all but immune to the wood contraction, expansion, moisture content changes, and rotting that plague traditional wood hulls. When used as a base under traditional spar varnish, epoxy provides those encapsulation benefits while also allowing for a very traditional appearing and much more durable (lower maintenance) brightwork finish. All of that seems similar enough to the requirements of an ideal gunstock finish system that I've been wondering whether anybody has tried it. Here's what I mean: http://westsystem.com/ewmag/18/varnish.html | |||
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Quote: I just started experimenting with it, InfoSponge. In truth, I tried it in an effort to achieve a harder surface that would take finer checkering. I typically work with wood of much less quality than the fine sticks that Chic gets to fashion.....  I "melted" in a couple applications of epoxy with a hair dryer prior to doing the typical "soaking" and successive wet sandings with finish. In this case a Tung Oil/Urethane product. The finish Tung Oil/Urethane application worked as before, and even a stain application prior to the finish was accomplished as usual. What was pleasantly surprising was the surface hardness of the finished product. With applications of "melted" epoxy you can make a piss-elm stock take clean 24 lpi checkering. It is no substitute for great English walnut......that allows nice "greasy" chisel cuts......but it is a "poor man's" density. I also presume it bolsters the weather resistence characteristics of the final finish. GV | |||
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Quote:One of my old Brownells "Gunsmith Kinks" has an extensive article on using Acraglas as stock finish. As I remember it, the process was similar to what Grandview described, i.e., heat was involved. | |||
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Infosponge, One draw back to an epoxy finish is that it is not UV protected. In a gun that may not be a big matter unless it was used very a great deal. On a boat, it has to be coated with a marine varnish to protect it from the sun. I have a beautiful 9 foot dinghy that was formed from cedar strips and then coated with epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth, inside and out. It yellowed badly without the varnish. The manufacturer was local but went out of business before that error was found. The problem I see with any expoxy is it's viscosity. It would have to be thinned to have any luck of getting any penetration and that is important in a stock. | |||
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The problem I see with any expoxy is it's viscosity. It would have to be thinned to have any luck of getting any penetration and that is important in a stock. Yes, I agree that penetration would be the key to avoid ending up with the look of a plastic coated or shrink-wrapped gunstock. The various epoxy systems used for wooden boat construction are generally thinner than Acraglas or hardware store epoxy, and the companies that make them also usually sell a thinning product to improve penetration even further. I bet WEST System or similar epoxy products could be used effectively on gunstocks, but I don't really have anything more to go on than what I have seen of similar but not identical projects on boats and in the pages of Epoxyworks magazine. And you are right that a varnish with UV screening additives would be a very good idea in such an application. | |||
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I have a quart of West System epoxy. It has great storage life. The hardener doesnt last as long. It will still work but it changes to a brilliant red and colors the epoxy. This stuff is still too thick. Acetone may thin it, or it may make it fubar. | |||
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WEST 207 Hardener is apparently the stuff you want to use for this application, and here is what the Gougeons have to say about thinning epoxy (looks like GrandView has the right idea): Quote: | |||
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I've been reading up on epoxy's and thinking of experminting a little. From what I've gathered, Grandviews approach of using it as a sealer, then top coated with a more traditional finish is what seems to be working and still looking good. I'll see how bad I can screw it up when I try it. I have a stock coming from Serengeti, hopefully soon Rod  , and I'm going to give it a whirl. | |||
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My original epoxy exercise was prompted by this article.... http://www.gunshop.com/stokeld1.htm I'm currently using an inexpensive epoxy I bought in quantity from Menards. It is pretty "runny".....much like AcraGlas.....which is the viscosity desired. I'm sure the "gel" epoxies wouldn't work well. I'm very careful to wipe off any excess epoxy that doesn't melt into the wood. If allowed to set up on the surface, it will require re-sanding and defeat the purpose of the exercise. Work in small areas....and work quickly. The heat applied speeds up the set-up process. And when this stuff turns.....it turns quickly! For a complete stock I find myself mixing 7-8 small batches of epoxy to complete the job. And of course this application presumes that the stock has been final shaped and sanded to at least 220. I've not assessed just how deeply the epoxy is penetrating the wood, nor how much this exercise is improving the finish. I know it at least leaves a "shell" of hardness that improves the checkering process and product. And it doesn't affect the finish process or products I'm accustomed to using. I'd certainly be interested to hear experiences of others. GV | |||
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Don't neglect UV protection -- in either the hardener (e.g., WEST 207) or the varnish (e.g., modern marine spar varnish), or both. | |||
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InfoSponge, Take a look at this product from Rot Doctor. Its called CPES, clear penetrating epoxy sealer. It seems to have superior penetration to be used to restore wood rot. I have a nice piece of claro walnut that is feather light and has large pores that look like a sponge but it has terrific fiddleback on both sides. I was going to give this a shot once the wood is inletted.It might help you with your stock finishing project. Bob | |||
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Much of the information I've gathered is from a poster on the 24hr campfire. He seems to have played around with quite a few different epoxys and seems up to speed. Here is a thread I saved for reference. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=50883&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=&vc=1 and here is a company that offers many of the products people seem to use. Those being the The West System stuff infosponge mentioned. The G1 and G2 mentioned on the 24hr thread, and Cold Cure which I've seen mentioned also. http://www.fiber-tek.com/epoxy.htm I'm hoping to get started soon and I'll share my experience when I get it done. I'm leaning towards the G1 product. | |||
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Sounds like one of the thinned epoxy products mentioned above in the WEST tech note. That might be good enough for gunstock work (where strength of the epoxy really isn't a primary consideration), but I'm inclined to try the heat thinning approach first in order to maintain the moisture sealing properties. I haven't got a stock project right now, but I've been thinking about a full-stocked Mauser in 9.3x62 for use in hunting Roosevelt Elk and blacktails (and for Sasquatch defense) out here on the Olympic Penninsula. With an epoxy-based finish, the stock might just do fine in all the rain and bashing through the woods. | |||
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