Any reason not to Nickel plate a Bolt.

02 July 2007, 22:13

I have a M96 Swede in 6.5x55 that came to me with the bottom metal and reciever Nickel plated. Right now the bolt and related parts are just polished steel and I've thought of Nickel plating those to match.
Is there any downside to this?

Thanks

02 July 2007, 22:34

ramrod340

Nickel adds thickness. I wouldn't do the lug area, firing pin hole etc. Rearward I don't see an issue at first thought.

02 July 2007, 23:19

vapodog

Heat treated steels can exhibit hydrogem embrittlement when the surface is covered (plated)

Personally, I'd polish it or jewel it and rig it and get on with life.

03 July 2007, 02:29

tiggertate

Maybe RoBar can give an answer related to their experience. The have different weapon plating systems including nickel and hard chrome. I know squat and certainly aren't arguing with Vapo.

03 July 2007, 02:31

Dr.K

Vapor depositing eliminates that problem !. In other words " Plasma Coating " !. TIN coat it never fear wear !.

03 July 2007, 04:21

ramrod340

quote:
Heat treated steels can exhibit hydrogem embrittlement when the surface is covered (plated)

Great day when I learn something new.

03 July 2007, 04:33

rem721

But, is the steel heat treated or is it carburized? The Swede's will have a thin carburized layer on top that is hard. They are soft inside unlike a modern Heat Treated receuver. So, will it make a difference, this embrittlement?

03 July 2007, 05:16

22WRF

The answer to your question need not be technical. The downside to it is anything chromed on a nice bolt action sporter looks damn ugly. Thats the reason not to do it!

03 July 2007, 05:22

bartsche

IMHO, The Swede is a great UTILITARIAN rifle. The nickel plating isn,t going to buy you anything. The contrast of jewlling will be great in appearance as VD suggests but even there is the cost worth it. Maybe VD is willing to make you a deal????? One of my 33/40s has a jewelled bolt and every once in a while I look at it and say''Hey! that really looks nice". I, However, am to cheap to pay to get it done on another rifle. But that's just me.

roger

03 July 2007, 05:30

rem721

I wasn't advocating plating anything. But, if the receiver is already done.....

I also would not jewel the bolt, I think it looks cheap.

If'n it were mine, I'd either leave the bolt in the white but polished or, for contrast, have it blued.

03 July 2007, 08:31

vapodog

just a little expanse on this.

heat treating is anything that causes a change in the grain structure of (mostly) steels.

Annealing is heat treating.....case hardening is heat treating. Thru hardening is heat treating.

Hydrogen embrittlement is a condition that can actually cause the metal to crack especially if the surface is clogged (plated) and the steel is not allowed to have a free exchange of hydrogen atoms created by the hardening process.

This condition is far more likely immediately after heat treating including case hardening and thru hardening. It's also more likely if the Rc is high (as it can be on bolts) Many years later this condition still is possible but the likelyhood is quite diminished.

I only saw it once in induction hardening and the result was to scrap the products that were so damaged by this embrittlement.

The last place I want to take unnecessary chances is on a bolt and I'd bet you're in tune here too. Even if the chaqnces of this are remote it's just not worth the risk....mostly as the gains can be quite opinionated.

Bluing adds absolutely no material to the surface and does not cause embrittlement.....

03 July 2007, 08:43

zimbabwe

Then you are basically saying all S&W revolvers that are Nickel plated are potentially unsafe.

03 July 2007, 08:46

vapodog

quote:
Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Then you are basically saying all S&W revolvers that are Nickel plated are potentially unsafe.

The question is:.....are they heat treated......and this may in fact be not the case.....many steels can have a marked increase in tensile by cold working.....much like ETD150 and ETD180 steels.

I have little doubt that Smith & Wessen are technically sound.

03 July 2007, 09:01

rem721

quote:
Originally posted by vapodog:
just a little expanse on this.

heat treating is anything that causes a change in the grain structure of (mostly) steels.

Annealing is heat treating.....case hardening is heat treating. Thru hardening is heat treating.

Hydrogen embrittlement is a condition that can actually cause the metal to crack especially if the surface is clogged (plated) and the steel is not allowed to have a free exchange of hydrogen atoms created by the hardening process.

This condition is far more likely immediately after heat treating including case hardening and thru hardening. It's also more likely if the Rc is high (as it can be on bolts) Many years later this condition still is possible but the likelyhood is quite diminished.

I only saw it once in induction hardening and the result was to scrap the products that were so damaged by this embrittlement.

The last place I want to take unnecessary chances is on a bolt and I'd bet you're in tune here too. Even if the chaqnces of this are remote it's just not worth the risk....mostly as the gains can be quite opinionated.

Bluing adds absolutely no material to the surface and does not cause embrittlement.....

There is nothing more dangerous than a LITTLE knowledge.

03 July 2007, 09:55

zimbabwe

It's always been my understanding that all S&W hammers and triggers for stainles revolvers were heat treated carbon steel and then plated to match the stainless. I could easily be wrong in this assumption.

03 July 2007, 16:16

redrover

quote:
There is nothing more dangerous than a LITTLE knowledge.

Like most platitudes, this is only a half-truth.

My knowledge of electroplating is doubtless way less than that of 'vapodog' and various other people on this forum, but I can clearly remember some facts I read about hydrogen embrittlement, even though it was many years ago.

A certain aircraft manufacturer began having troubles with chrome-plated undercarriage parts cracking and breaking for no obvious reason. The 'boffins' eventually traced the cause to hydrogen absorbsion occuring during the plating process. They also found a cure - baking the components immediately after plating, under strictly controlled temperature conditions, drove off the hydrogen, and all was well again.

I'd guess that it WOULD need to be strictly contolled for things like undercarriage or firearm components, to ensure that the metal was not tempered back to a dangerously soft state.

03 July 2007, 17:02

DMB

Plated gun parts look BAD, phony.

Don

03 July 2007, 18:28

Snellstrom

Just to remind everyone that is telling me how bad Nickel plating looks on a rifle I need to remind you that the rifle came to me with the bottom metal and reciever Nickel plated. So picture that and a blued barrel and a polished bolt and cocking piece I'm at the point where I should blue the boly to match the barrel? or Nickel the bolt and cocking piece to match the reciever and bottom metal?
Please don't think that I think a Nickeled bolt would look cool I'm just trying to make this pieced together rifle look a little more homogeneous rather than, well pieced together!

All the input about plating making the steel un dependable is very interesting to me and I am listening closely. I think the jeweling option is a "no go" for me as it would be just one more thing on this rifle that doesn't match or go with the rest of it.
Here's a picture of the problem child so you can see what I'm talking about.

03 July 2007, 18:58

tdobesh

Snellstrom,

Not to stir the pot, but quite frankly after seeing the picture I'm not quite sure what your problem with it's appearance is. Maybe it doesn't show up well in a picture, but to me things look just fine as is. I can see where plating the bolt would ease maintanance since we all know how quickly steel in the white can and will rust.

03 July 2007, 21:10

bartsche

quote:
Originally posted by tdobesh:
Snellstrom,

Not to stir the pot, but quite frankly after seeing the picture I'm not quite sure what your problem with it's appearance is. Maybe it doesn't show up well in a picture, but to me things look just fine as is. I can see where plating the bolt would ease maintanance since we all know how quickly steel in the white can and will rust.

Since,however it hasn't rusted much in the last 100 years, the amount it rusts before you kick the bucket may be insignificant. Just a hunch.

roger

04 July 2007, 03:52

Snellstrom

Okay so I'm being picky!

One thing that's not shown in the picture is a Blued shroud and a 2 position swing (M70 style) safety that I will be adding to it, who knows maybe it will look fine with some Nickel, some blued and some polished furniture on it?

Vapo mentioned "rig" is that a metal treatment of some kind? I'm not familiar with it?
Thanks for all your help guys.

04 July 2007, 04:35

butchlambert

I have a Mod. 7 receiver and bolt that was e-nickle to match the stainless barrel. I won't comment on the apperance, but it has had many rounds through it with no problems.
Butch

04 July 2007, 08:10

vapodog

quote:
Vapo mentioned "rig" is that a metal treatment of some kind? I'm not familiar with it?
Thanks for all your help guys.

RIG universal is a greaselike substance to be hand applied to metal as a rust preventative. It comes in a 1 Oz container from Canoga Park CA.....and I really like it as a real protector of metal in harsh and wet conditions.

04 July 2007, 20:32

Dr.K

When plating metal with either Nickel Chrome or various other surface enhancements . There is most alway an underneath plate of copper some times to be followed by brass ( Triple plating ).

Vapor depositing eliminates film thickness builds and to my limited knowledge does not effect or contribute to hydrogen embrittlement what so ever .

Think about this for a moment , SS can be vapor deposited on Plastic !. As well as several other metallic substances . A fairly famous car was the first to use this treatment . Any one remember what it was or who designed it ?.

My personal take is Nickel is gaudy on a weapon !.

I how ever understand the argument if the receiver is done , then the need to match the bolt up .

Consult a metallurgical engineer , if you don't know any or where to find one . get back with me . I'll put you in touch with a couple of the best NASA has to offer !. ...

04 July 2007, 22:11

mete

Here's a metallurgist

There are two types of nickel plating electrolytic and electroless.It is only electrolytic that will generate hydrogen ions which will diffuse easily into the steel. It's not a problem if the steel isn't too hard ,~40 HRc.Proper proceedure is to bake the steel after plating to remove the hydrogen.Electroless plating is actually nickel + phosporous and is harder than the electrolytic.Browning has used electroless on some guns such as the HP.If you ever plate any gun make sure it's dne by a reputable company that has specific gun plating experience !!!

05 July 2007, 09:21

dan_oz

FWIW Electroless nickel also has the advantages of high hardness (up to 60 Rc as-plated for low-phosphorous electroless nickel) and a non-galling surface. Properly applied it forms a nice thin uniform coat too.

05 July 2007, 11:01

vapodog

quote:
Vapor depositing eliminates film thickness builds and to my limited knowledge does not effect or contribute to hydrogen embrittlement what so ever .

Is this the process known as vacuum metalizing?....commonly used to "plate" plastics?

Just curious!

05 July 2007, 17:00

jeffeosso

don't know if anyone mentioned it... nickel is softer than steel..

blackchrome might be what you are after?

05 July 2007, 19:21

dan_oz

quote:
don't know if anyone mentioned it... nickel is softer than steel..

As I said, low phosphorous electroless nickel typically has an as-plated hardness of up to about 60 Rc (or equivalent, derived from Knoop or Vickers microhardness). It can in fact be heat treated to increase that hardness further, to over 70 Rc, but even as-plated is considerably harder than the surface of a typical through-hardened rifle bolt or receiver, and pretty close to line-ball with the hard skin on a carburised one. By way of comparison a good knife blade might be 56-60 Rc.

It also has pretty good lubricity/non-galling and resistance to wear, and is commonly used to extend the service life of items like tools and dies.

05 July 2007, 19:30

dan_oz

quote:
Is this the process known as vacuum metalizing?....commonly used to "plate" plastics?

Vacuum metallizing is a variety of physical vapour deposition. Essentially you are reducing metal to a vapour and then depositing it onto the surface. There are different ways of doing these things, using arc, laser etc. It's not really my thing, but here is a bit of an explanation