Hello the campfire:
Although I am a lawyer in real life, there are some questions about the universe, sex, and firearms shipping that I can not answer. A person I know asked me to look into a problem he is having over a rifle he bought from Gun Broker.
The person he bought from shipped it to a FFL holder here in Alabama. The FFl holder refuses to release the firearm because it was not shipped to him by a FFL holder. So one person has the money, another has the Rifle, and another is holding the empty bag.
YOu all who know, is this correct that ony FFL to FFL shipments are allowed, no individual to FFL shipments? Conversations with other FFL holders seem to support this position.
I have sugested that the FFL who received the rifle send it back to the shipper and the shipper then go to a FFL to resend it. This seems a waste of time and money.
HELP
Judge Sharpe

Anyone who can legally own a firearm can ship it to a FFL dealer to do the transfer. Period. That is the federal law and I doubt any local laws with take precedence over that. I would suggest your friend tell the dealer he is going to call the closest branch of the ATF and file a complaint.

I have looked into this twice with the BATF, Postal Service and UPS. The person taking delivery from the shipping company has to have an FFL and is responsible for insuring that the purchaser meets Federal and any Local requirements to possess the firearm.

Hey, Judge!

I pulled out my handy-dandy copy of State Firearms Laws and Ordinances, and Alabama has all of 24 state fireams laws...and none of them say anything at all about dealers only being able to accept delivery of firearms from other dealers. Perhaps your guy just has a personal policy of doing that...or maybe he just doesn’t know any better.

This has got to be one of the most misinterpreted laws out there, yet it is so simple.

The dealer in Alabama is quite misinformed. It does not matter where the gun came from as long as at the receiving end it goes through an FFL.

-Spencer

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Anyone who can legally own a firearm can ship it to a FFL dealer to do the transfer. Period. That is the federal law and I doubt any local laws with take precedence over that. I would suggest your friend tell the dealer he is going to call the closest branch of the ATF and file a complaint.

Snowwolfe got it right about the "Anyone who can legally own a firearm" part. Some FFL holders take this to heart and say "how do I know Joe Blow (the shipper) can legally own a firearm?".

Therefor I'm only going accept a gun from another FFL holder to cover My butt just in case.

I'd suggest calling the local ATF office and get their reading on this. Make sure you get a name if they say the local FFL holder is wrong so you can have him call them back... Or point you to a web site.

Ok an FFl holder can except firearms from anyone as long as he logs it in his book. This
shows where it came from. How does he know if the sender owns the firearm.

NOW I have one for you.In md we can sell a pistol to another person who lives in our state.
Without an FFL as long as you regester it with the MD State police.I just tryed to buy one from Gunbroker , Won the auction and the person only lives 20 miles from me.He wants to go through a FFL holder and ship it to him. This would cost me an extra $45 transfer fee, $30 dollars shipping=20 miles mind you and $10 regestration fee.The regestration fee is a given.He said if I don't do it his way I will get a bad Mark on Gunbroker.

510, This is exactly why people have problems. Dealers imposing there own rules that are against the law. I once refused to sell a $2,300 rifle because the seller insist I have an FFL dealer mail it for me to his dealer. Thats so stupid.

It doesnt matter if the seller can legally own the firearm as long as it is not stolen. A FFL can recieve a firearm from a private citizen, its not any different than if I walked into a pawn shop and sold them a gun. I private citizen would be giving a FFL dealer a firearm does the shop check my background to see if I can own a gun legally. No they check to see if the gun is stolen and document who brought it in.

Judge, the FFL receiving this is wrong wrong wrong. Now that is three strikes and if you really are a judge you should now be able to either hang this sob or put him in jail forever so no one else has to deal with such stupidity. Go get him and put him away, or at least write one of those, refrain from the person of the first part, pro quo vid humorous infectum letters and at least make the guy piss his pants although he deserves so much more. Sorry about the run on sentence but I was on such a roll.

quote:

Snowwolfe: Anyone who can legally own a firearm can ship it to a FFL dealer to do the transfer. Period.

Ditto. Often the receiving dealer wants a photocopy of the seller/shipper's driver license for their records and own protection.

You have two separate issues in cases like this. The first is what is or isn’t legal under the state, local and federal firearms laws... and the second involves a business practice and/or policy.

I have a FFL and I am not aware of any law that requires me to do a transfer of a firearm between two other parties if I don’t want to. I also don’t know of any law that says that I cannot adopt a business policy that requires certain conditions be met (above those required by law) before I will do a transfer.

Now, if my policy is discriminatory, unreasonable, or illegal, then someone can either sue me in court or choose to do business elsewhere.

What allot of people seem to think is that the BATF has authority/jurisdiction over the conduct of business, by people holding a Federal Firearms Licence, other than conduct that falls under one of the firearms laws...THEY DONâ€T.

The easiest way to handle these cases is to ask the dealer if he is aware of the laws or if he just has a personal/business policy of only accepting firearms from other licenced dealers...then make your own decision as to whether or not you want to do business with them.

Rick is 1000% right on. An FFL dealer is a private citizen conducting a private business and if you do not like his businerss practices, go somewhere else. All you fellas out there carping, think about what you're saying. Do you really want BATF&E telling a businessman how to do business?? If that's the way you feel you should vote for Hillary C. or Dianne Feinstein. I'm sure they'll accomodate you.

JMHO

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
You have two separate issues in cases like this. The first is what is or isn’t legal under the state, local and federal firearms laws... and the second involves a business practice and/or policy.

I have a FFL and I am not aware of any law that requires me to do a transfer of a firearm between two other parties if I don’t want to. I also don’t know of any law that says that I cannot adopt a business policy that requires certain conditions be met (above those required by law) before I will do a transfer.

Now, if my policy is discriminatory, unreasonable, or illegal, then someone can either sue me in court or choose to do business elsewhere.

What allot of people seem to think is that the BATF has authority/jurisdiction over the conduct of business, by people holding a Federal Firearms Licence, other than conduct that falls under one of the firearms laws...THEY DONâ€T.

The easiest way to handle these cases is to ask the dealer if he is aware of the laws or if he just has a personal/business policy of only accepting firearms from other licenced dealers...then make your own decision as to whether or not you want to do business with them.

That's true as far as it goes. OTOH, if someone is offering his serviceds as an FFL source, he has an obligation as a businessman to let his clients know in advance if his policies exceed the requirements of the law. It may or may not have happened here but if not, I would not hesitate to put the proverbial thumb screws to the guy until I got my firearm. There are a lot of things to try before going to the Postal Inspector or BATF but if that's what it ultimately takes, so be it.

Looks like Harry is gonna need the services of a dealer in a couple days!

Someone who is selling his services to receive and transfer weapons should operate within the law. I cant believe that some of you would try to add even another "rule" to this system. Different dealers having different requirements is what screws everything up. Why in heavens name would you require this? How could it possibly "protect" you?

Guys...perhaps this is nit-picking...BUT!

Unless there is a LAW being violated (which I have yet to hear about) regulatory/enforcement agencies have absolutely no authority or jurisdiction (thank God!) to get involved in disputes between a business and a customer.

Operating a business in a rude, stupid, or unprofessional manner is NOT against the law...it’s just rude, stupid and unprofessional!

quote:

Originally posted by SwiftShot:
It doesnt matter if the seller can legally own the firearm as long as it is not stolen. A FFL can recieve a firearm from a private citizen, its not any different than if I walked into a pawn shop and sold them a gun. I private citizen would be giving a FFL dealer a firearm does the shop check my background to see if I can own a gun legally. No they check to see if the gun is stolen and document who brought it in.

I suspect perhaps the last part of your post here may be at the heart of this matter ("and document who brought it in"). What sort of ID did the shipper send to the Dealer in question?

In every state I am aware of, a pawn shop CANNOT legally accept a pawn without first getting bona-fide identification of the person pawning the article. That is to identify the pawners of not only stolen goods, but weapons used in violent crimes too. So, if a pawn shop MUST do that, it probably is not too illogical for a dealer in "weapons" to do the same, to protect himself and his business.

Did the shipper have contact with the
Dealer in advance to let him know the circumstances of the sale and to inquire whether the dealer WANTED to handle that particular transaction? The dealer is, after all, not a public utility at the beckon and call of anyone who wants to make use of his license.

As for the laws involved, it is definitely NOT illegal (against the law) for the dealer to want only shipments from other FFL holders. That way he can at least be sure he has legal corroboration of how he ended up with that gun, should he receive what could in a far-fetched scenario turn out to be a weapon which had been involved in a drug, weapon smuggling, domestic terrorism, or homicide scenario.

These days with the Homeland Security fiasco in full swing, one can't be too careful in the gun business. I accept shipments from non-dealers, but I sure as hell don't do it without receiving adequate ID (to MY satisfaction) before hand.

If the shipper had a verbal agreement per the shipping, in advance, and the dealer has violated it, then of course I would also be critical of the dealer.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Looks like Harry is gonna need the services of a dealer in a couple days!

Fingers crossed!