These 3 rifles were side by side in a cabinet.

The Rigby was a 458 built on a Sako with the tacky purple bolt handle. Decent stock though. The H&H was a .244 H&H that was built with some Mauser action with all aluminum bottom metal. The stock was nothing I would get excited about -almost ugly. The Jerry Fisher rifle was a .404 on a single square bridge magnum Mauser. A truly awesome stock. The wood figure was nice but not spectacular but the checkering, fit and finish were unbelievable.. especially the checkering.
Just a nice point pattern with about 28 LPI and every diamond and every line was perfect.
All 3 were in about the 8K price range but the Brits didn't have a chance in hell by comparison....

They just dont get it&never will.Brits perfected the SXS,italians the O/U&americans the custom bolt rifle.And in less than a century for 1/3 the cost,4Xs the quality,precision,accuracy.

You guys are looking at the wrong Brt bolt guns, The brits perfected the sxs alright, and then took what they knew and made bolt guns feel like a good sxs. It sounds from your description that both Brit guns were post war. Check out some from between the wars then post on the comparison.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
You guys are looking at the wrong Brt bolt guns, The brits perfected the sxs alright, and then took what they knew and made bolt guns feel like a good sxs. It sounds from your description that both Brit guns were post war. Check out some from between the wars then post on the comparison.
Steve

Nah,
It had nothing to do with feel....it was about craftsmanship.

Statistically, too small a sampling to draw any valid conclusions.

flaco

I too have seen some H&H`s that were not the quality one could expect with H&H name on.
H&H did take other guns/pistols in from other makes and maked it with their name(don`t know about Rigby).
The finest H&H I have been standing with was in a gunshop(Guns & Gents) here in copenhagen. That rifle was very very pretty. It was a .300 H&H or .30 Super as marked.

If the English perfected the sxs, and italiens perfected the over and under..and americans perfected the bolt...What did the americans actually do to perfect the boltgun??
The americans perfected the leveraction rifle along with an agricultural background... yeee-ha..

While the British designed the top SxS guns of the pre war era (the boxlock, sidelock and the trigger plate action were all their inventions, of course) they were not always the best. The American Rifleman carried a test of a Purdey Best shotgun destructed alongside an AYA and a Winchester Model 21 by John Olin when he owned Winchester. IIRC the Model 21 shot something like 200,000 more rounds after the Purdey went off the face and still stayed tight. The AYA could take 100,000 rounds more than the Purdey.

I sent the NRA several mails asking them for copies of the test and for them to feature it again in The American Rifleman but didn't get any reply. I wish they would republish it sometime. It would be very interesting reading for anyone interested in the subject.

My point was that lots of companies, Brits included, went through periods of poor quailty. An Aluminum floor plate and a Sako action scream post war. You wont see poor quality from either Rigby or Holland from a rifle that was made before WWII. Low grade sure, but not low quality. Both craftsmanship and feel suffered in the post war period, due to both economic and social reasons. Social being the California style that was so poular at the time. I've seen some downright ugly Brit guns made from th 50's to the 70's. Thankfully, taste seems to be back in vogue. Mr. Fisher makes lovely rifles though.
Steve

I BELIEVE YOU
LL FIND THE TRIGGER PLATE ACTION WAS IN LONG YEARS OF USE B Y THE GERMANS BEFORE THE BRITS EVER BUILT ONE.....IE DRILLING ACTIONS

MAYBE SOMEONE WHO KNOWS CAN TELL WHEN THE H&H 244 CARTRIDGE WAS BROUGHT OUT ?

I HAVE AN EARLIER ORIGINAL 240 APEX HOLLAND BUILT IN 1920 THAT WILL PUT TO SHAME ANY OF THESE CUSTOM AMERICAN RIFLES DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR.

IF SOMEONE CAN POST PICS I'LL SEND THEM ON

quote:

I HAVE AN EARLIER ORIGINAL 240 APEX HOLLAND BUILT IN 1920 THAT WILL PUT TO SHAME ANY OF THESE CUSTOM AMERICAN RIFLES DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR.

No you don't.
You need to get caught up on custom rifles and craftsmanship.

i probably do need to get caught up on custom american rifles.

all the british rifles and german made ones have a makers name on them.

so many of the custom made ones i saw at the custom gunmakers guild at the silver legacy didn't have a name on them. why ??

if i were buying a custom rifle i think it should have the makers name on it, don't you ? otherwise you don't know who really made it.

further, it is interesting to note that the american makers --only -- make bolt rifles. or rebarrel other types of actions.

doesn't any american maker know how to make a double shotgun ? or a good single shot action?

In Norway we still tell fairy tales to our kids. In stead of having them look at AMF and its like.
And we like to tell the story of The Emperors new cloths, by H.C.Andersen. And we all laugh when the little boy points out that the emperor indeed is naked, and that his taylor is a con.

Without that tale in the pocket, it is easy to think that everything that glimmers, is gold. The old english makers has, bar Purdey and Boss, all made really cheap, low grade guns, besides their best guns. Because of the stamping of the barrel, they sell for ridicoulos sums of money.

And the emperor is stark naked..........

They make some really nice boltrifles to, but IMO nothing that can be compared to what the best makers in the US make today.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
In Norway we still tell fairy tales to our kids. In stead of having them look at AMF and its like.
And we like to tell the story of The Emperors new cloths, by H.C.Andersen. And we all laugh when the little boy points out that the emperor indeed is naked, and that his taylor is a con.

Without that tale in the pocket, it is easy to think that everything that glimmers, is gold. The old english makers has, bar Purdey and Boss, all made really cheap, low grade guns, besides their best guns. Because of the stamping of the barrel, they sell for ridicoulos sums of money.

And the emperor is stark naked..........

They make some really nice boltrifles to, but IMO nothing that can be compared to what the best makers in the US make today.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I once saw a .300 H&H Magnum built on a pattern 14 Enfield with the proper H&H barrel markings. I never saw a more poorly made POS in my life. Barrel was corroded, rust and pits all over the gun and fit of metal to wood was terrible. The POS selling the gun had the nerve at ask $1,700 because it was a genuine Holland & Holland rifle. In MHO, it was a genuine piece of junk.
Paul B.

Tomo,the244H&H was about 1956 vintage usually on a FN action.first saw it written up in ?Guns magazine.Great article in 94-96? Am.Rifleman explaining why one doesnt need one&real problems with them.

Tomo,COTW says 244H&H intro 1955-not a bad guess.theoretically 100gr@3500 but speer got only3276.this with 70+gr powder-6mm BR wildcats in Fclass guns blast 107 SMKs@3000+ over 32 gr Varget&group in the .2s.
ihad a H&H 240 pre war vintage Mauser.cost $550,along side my Biesen M70($225)there was NO comparison.if Biesen had sent that H&H with his name on it ,he would have been ridiculed.