I read again and again about some of the really great names in barrels....Hart, Lilja, PacNor, Shilen, etc.....lots more.... and Have always wondered why one needs to spend this money to get accuracy.
As I recall two of the most famous for accuracy rifles ever made are the ultra cheap Remington 788 and today's equally cheap Savage.
Hard to believe these folks are attaching extremely expensive barrels to their actions!!!!

Bear in mind that I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT BENCH REST RIFLES. Bolt action varmint and hunting rifles here only.
Yes, there's those that say they clean easier.....and I'll accept that, but is that really important to an elk hunter that might clean the barrel once a year?

I believe in accuracy but it looks like expensive barrels are not the key at all to accuracy. This feeling is supported by many posts of folks using A&B barrels as well as Wilson, E R Shaw and other cheapos. Personally I use Douglas when I rebarrel but only because they make the featherweight barrels I like.
Are barrels really the key to accuracy?????

You're right. Very accurate barrels exist on some factory rifles and this gets better every year. It's hard to beat the accuracy of a Remingtn 40X by adding a custom barrel.
I'm convinced that 80% of the reason for custom barrels is snob appeal! If you are going to change the caliber of a fine rifle, of course, rebarreling with a good barrel is important to keep the value up. Other than that I have never found a custom barrel necessary for accuracy.
Incidentally, the most important part of the rifle, for accuracy, is the thing that pulls the trigger.

In a way you are right. It doesn't take much of a barrel to shoot 1 moa or even a bit better. Also, hunting weight barrels simply do not shoot 1/2 moa. That is, they don't unless your criteria for a 1/2 moa rifle is one that shoots a 1/2inch 3 shot group pretty often.
The point of the premium barrels is to be able to do all the work to produce the best chambering and fitting job possible and not be let down by a sub-standard barrel.
Remington 788s, like Remington 700s and 600s,were often very accurate but this shouldn't be considered to be an endorsement of second rate barrels, crooked threads, or poor bedding.
I have seen impressive results from some pretty common barrels but I am not going to start relying on Adams and Bennet for my target rifle barrels any time soon.
In the end it just doesn't make sense for a person to spend a thousand on a stock,another thousand on an action and a few hundred on chambering and fitting, fitting, trigger work, etc. then cheap out on the barrel.
On the other hand, it makes perfect sense to use the less expensive barrel if one is mking up a "fun gun" using inexpensive components or dicking around with some wildcat idea. Regards, Bill.

I feel about the same way you do. I question ,however lumping a varmint rifle in with an every day large game rifle. I have a number of AB barreled rifles and a fair number of other el cheapo barreled rifles. As rifles for deer and Elk most through the years have worked OK. Few however have the repeatability necessary to hit PD size game consistantly at 200yards. One AB .22-.250 would hit perhaps one out of four PDs at that range using a steady rest. My feeling is that is not acceptable performance. You may feel differently but your point is well taken. roger

As Bill Clinton would say,"It all depends on what your definition of accuracy is". No factory barrel, or lesser grade of custom barrel, will ever, ever reach the level of accuarcy of the better (and more expensive) premium barrels. As Bill Leeper said, why spend all that $ on a rifle and then try and save a few bucks by going cheap on the barrel? JMHO, Ray

I buy premium custom barrels for long range shooters (varmints and others) or to get a barrel in a configuration or caliber that aren't offered in a stock left handed rifle

A good friend of mine,an ole farmer who loved
coon hunting ,once told me...
It cost the same to feed a good dog as it does
to feed a pot licker.

Since there are so many variables, how does one even know? For example, a poster above said that his barrel would only hit one in four prairie dogs. Was that becasue of the barrel itself, or the installation, or the action, or the chambering, or the bullets, or the powder,or the cases, or the shooter, or the wind, or the scope mounting, or the scope?

Seems to me that the only way one would ever know which is the absolute best barrel is to take one action, one custom smith who uses the exact same tooling and does things the exact same way for each barrel, and then take the exact same caliber barrel from all of the different makers, install them on that one action, use the same scope, the same reloads, the same shooter, on the same windless day, with the same trigger, and then perhaps one could find the "best" barrel.

I repeat, otherwise, how would you know?

"I repeat, otherwise, how would you know?[/QUOTE]"

Gee! Let me think on that roger

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Seems to me that the only way one would ever know which is the absolute best barrel is to take one action, one custom smith who uses the exact same tooling and does things the exact same way for each barrel, and then take the exact same caliber barrel from all of the different makers, install them on that one action, use the same scope, the same reloads, the same shooter, on the same windless day, with the same trigger, and then perhaps one could find the "best" barrel.

I repeat, otherwise, how would you know?

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Even if you do all of that, there is no guaranty that you could determine which is the best barrel. Individual barrels from the same maker will vary more than than 99.9% of the shooters could shoot them.
What you are doing buying a premium barrel is banking on the experience and reputation of a barrel maker that you will get a quality product. Barrel makers get reputations in benchrest, high power, F class, or other shooting matches for consistently producing barrels that win the big matches. Take a look at the winners of all of the big precision shooting international and national matches and you will see the same maker's names in the top 10 every year. With those makers you can probably be sure that you're getting a very consistent barrel.

I'm convinced that the pipefitter is more important than the pipe up to 1/2" accuracy. I have Lilja, Douglas, A&B that all shoot 1/2-3/4" all day long, but I had excellent gunsmiths fit them. I don't shoot benchrest, so I can't comment on that, but all the others are hunting rifles.
Straight and centered is everything.

I have had good results, sub inch /100m, from .270 Steyr Mannlicher Model M and .270 Heym SR20N. These were "as bought" factory rifles.

I also have two rifles re-barrrelled using Shilem Chrome -Moly Match Grade barrels because, being left handed, I could not obtain the chamberings I wanted. I am having two semi custom rifles built, not just a barrel screw job mentioned earlier.

These will wear an air gauged Douglas Match Grade Chrome Moly and a stainless steel Pac-Nor Super Match Grade barrels respectively.

With good grade barrels you are getting manufacturing consistency(tighter tolerances etc). This is evident by the competitions won using their barrels and the companies standing by their products.

It is no good buying a top grade tube and not having it fitted properly though. It must be square and true w.r.t. receiver and it pays to have the lugs lapped. Then get youreslf a good trigger job as well!

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Originally posted by vapodog:
I read again and again about some of the really great names in barrels....Hart, Lilja, PacNor, Shilen, etc.....lots more.... and Have always wondered why one needs to spend this money to get accuracy.
As I recall two of the most famous for accuracy rifles ever made are the ultra cheap Remington 788 and today's equally cheap Savage.
Hard to believe these folks are attaching extremely expensive barrels to their actions!!!!

Bear in mind that I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT BENCH REST RIFLES. Bolt action varmint and hunting rifles here only.
Yes, there's those that say they clean easier.....and I'll accept that, but is that really important to an elk hunter that might clean the barrel once a year?

I believe in accuracy but it looks like expensive barrels are not the key at all to accuracy. This feeling is supported by many posts of folks using A&B barrels as well as Wilson, E R Shaw and other cheapos. Personally I use Douglas when I rebarrel but only because they make the featherweight barrels I like.
Are barrels really the key to accuracy?????

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Yes, and the Remington 40X comes with a group size guarantee that is pretty impressive. I don't know who makes the barrels, but I imagine it's Remington??

Douglas Premium Grades can shoot too.

This is a strange and mysterious topic.

In the early 1990s, I owned two .338 Win. Mag. rifles at the same time. One was a Ruger 77R with a laminated factory stock, factory barrel -- factory everything -- except that I carefully glass-bedded it, had the trigger adjusted by a good local 'smith, and I installed a 4X Leupold in the factory Ruger rings. I didn't have a whole lot of money tied up in this Ruger.

The other rifle was a complete, expensive, full-house custom job by Jarrett Rifles, built on a Remington 700 action with a Schneider barrel, McMillan's "Griffin & Howe" stock, Leupold 2.5-8X scope -- the works. Again, this rifle was in .338 Win. Mag.

Even though there was about a $3,000 price difference between these two rifles, the pretty-much all-factory Ruger, as far as I was concerned, was a much better rifle. If you can believe it, this rifle shot much better than the Jarrett, was far, far less fussy on loads, delivered higher velocities, fed better, felt better in the hands, and was just a surer, more confidence-inspiring hunting rifle.

In the end, I sold the Ruger to one of my best friends who simply couldn't live without it (he still has it, swears by it, and has hunted with it for 12 years), while the Jarrett -- custom barrel and all -- I couldn't wait to get rid of and finally did at something of a loss. As far as I was concerned, it was one of the worst custom rifles I ever owned.

That story demonstrates that accuracy and performance isn't always tied to barrel make. Sometimes cheap barrels shoot really, really well. I am convinced that on the average top custom barrels do shoot much better, but no one make necessarily stands out. I'm also convinced that the quality of gunsmithing you hire is a huge, huge part of the equation and is far more important than many people realize. I usually choose the gunsmith I want to hire first, then trust his judgement about barrels, and I only trust his judgement or hire him in the first place, if he's a true rifleman and tests what he shoots by firing for accuracy at the range. Many of them don't. A good riflesmith, who works day-in and day-out with all aspects of barrels and the process of barreling is an incredibly good source to rely upon for barrel selection.

Even the best riflesmiths who obtain and carefully install the best makes of barrels will occasionally run into a lemon that won't shoot. These guys will replace such bum barrels.........

AD

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Originally posted by Cheechako:
As Bill Clinton would say,"It all depends on what your definition of accuracy is". No factory barrel, or lesser grade of custom barrel, will ever, ever reach the level of accuarcy of the better (and more expensive) premium barrels. As Bill Leeper said, why spend all that $ on a rifle and then try and save a few bucks by going cheap on the barrel? JMHO, Ray

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Then how do you explain the .250-.300" groups that my Savage 116 in .270 WSM turn in EVERY time I go to the range!!! I've seen so many custom barreled rifles that NEVER achieve that level of accuracy. I also have another Savage in .300 RUM that consisently shoots.5-.6 MOA. By the way, neither one of these guns cost what a custom barrel blank costs.

I have seen and range-tested 100% factory-original Savage bolt guns -- as well as Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Tikka, Sako, and Weatherby -- that would outshoot, any day of the week, certain fancy, extremely expensive, glitter-baby-type custom rifles that cost up to twenty times more; you know, the kind of custom rifle that was built for show instead of function.

Even so, great rifles are much more than just accurate off the bench on a piece of paper. Accuracy in and of itself can be a very deceptive measuring stick of rifle quality. There is such a thing as "accurate junk". It's when you get to that point of achieving fine accuracy, as well as perfect balance and feeding, 100% functional reliability, superior stock dimensions, quality materials, simplicity of design and construction, superb workmanship, and true point-of-impact stability that you have in your hands a great rifle.

The best rifles are COMPLETE rifles, and there's much more to them just "benchrest accuracy"...........

AD

Well said.

Terry

Mr. Bowhunter, you must get a much better price on your Savages than I can and I do have an FFL. I won't comment on the rest of your post. Butch

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Then how do you explain the .250-.300" groups that my Savage 116 in .270 WSM turn in EVERY time I go to the range!!!

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Bowhunter

If indeed you have a 270 that shoots .250-.300 EVERY time you go to the range I can only explain it by saying you have one very exceptional barrel. I'd suggest that you give up your day job and take that rifle on the road, shooting for money. I am a long-time benchrest shooter and there are many days I would give anything to average those kind of groups shooting a 6PPC with a premium barrel and match-grade bullets.. And I'm not alone. I grabbed the latest issue of NBRSA News and opened it to the match results. They just happened to be from Phoenix. The winner of the Heavy varmint 100 yard aggregate (that's five 5-shot groups) posted a .2738. That's about right in the middle of your .250-.300 EVERY day groups. Second place was .2780 and third was .3042. So you would have done no worse than second place.

So, I'll pose two questions to you. First, how well do you think your 270 would shoot if it had a premium barrel on it? And, second, how come I NEVER see a winner at benchrest who shoots a factory barrel?

Bowhunter I call on this statement by you sir:Then how do you explain the .250-.300" groups that my Savage 116 in .270 WSM turn in EVERY time I go to the range!!!

You can spend little on an A&B barrel and get a shooter that'll print .4"or less groups (like I did) and feel lucky and have a custom rifle you love that didn't break the bank. Or it may not shoot that well, but usually good enough.

Or you can spend lots of money on a big name tube and it damm well better shoot good.

The more you spend, the more you should demand. Sometimes you get more than you pay for.

This is from my limited years of experience

I happened to read the February issue of Outdoor Life ragazine last night, and found it very interesting that Jim Carmichel chose a DOUGLAS Air Guaged XX Barrel to develop his new 6.5 Leopard Cartridge.

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Originally posted by 22WRF:
I happened to read the February issue of Outdoor Life ragazine last night, and found it very interesting that Jim Carmichel chose a DOUGLAS Air Guaged XX Barrel to develop his new 6.5 Leopard Cartridge.

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What's interesting about that???.....It's a very fine barrel!!!

Jim's had a long-standing relationship with Douglas, and he's had great luck with their barrels. Amoung other favorite hunting rifles, his famous self-stocked .458 Win. Mag. and his David Miller Company .338 Win. Mag. wear Douglas barrels, so Jim and Douglas go back a long way........

AD

quote:

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Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

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Originally posted by 22WRF:
I happened to read the February issue of Outdoor Life ragazine last night, and found it very interesting that Jim Carmichel chose a DOUGLAS Air Guaged XX Barrel to develop his new 6.5 Leopard Cartridge.

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What's interesting about that???.....It's a very fine barrel!!!

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I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't a "very fine barrel". Rather, interesting in the sense that Mr. Carmichel could probably choose any barrel he wanted to make his rifles and he chose a Douglas, and therefore he believes that the Douglas Premium Barrel is on a par with the other premium barrels made by the other premium barrel makers.

a couple of other interesting comments made by Mr. Carmichel are that shorter fatter cartridges may have more inherent accuracy due to more uniform powder burning, and also because those shorter fatter cartridges take a shorter action, which amounts to a stiffer action, which amounts to less vibration in the action and barrel during the firing sequence.

Here's the way I look at it. If I'm buying a factory rifle then I am going to concentrate on proper bedding, a well adjusted trigger, proper feeding, etc. and see how it shoots. Generally I've been able to get acceptable accuracy that way and as Allen alluded to I consider handling and function to be more critical in a hunting rifle than pure accuracy. If I am rebarreling or building a custom then I am going to use a top quality custom barrel. Why not? Skimping on a couple hundred dollars doesn't seem worth it.

Jeff

jimmyd223, I gotta make the same call you did only without the emoticon. "THATS BULLSHIT"

It all comes back to that "definition of accuracy". The requirements different for rifles intended for different applications. A good hunting rifle will reliably put the first shot from a clean cold barrel to within 1 inch of the intended point of impact if a big game rifle and within 1/2 inch if a varminter. If the big game rifle can then put two more within an inch of the first, it's a good one. Infact, if subsequent shots remain within 1 inch of the intended point of impact and, therefor, no more than 2 inches from the first shot, the outfit will perform it's task very well. More is expected of the varminter, of course, because the targets are smaller and there are more of them! The barrel is only a part of the equation in these cases but an important one. The point of the more expensive custom barrels is that there is a lesser likelyhood of any accuracy problems being the fault of the barrel.
The definition of accuracy for target rifles is quite a bit different. In the case of a BR rifle, it has to be able to put 5 shots into less than .2" (often much less)to have any hope of winning. A good rifle will put all shots, including the first sighter, to the same point of impact. This requires, not only a good barrel but an exceptional one. It also requires that the rest of the outfit be technically flawless.
A good fullbore or "F" class rifle doesn't need to achieve quite the same level of precision- 1/2 moa being sufficient- but it needs to be able to maintain this accuracy level for up to 20 shots. To shoot a perfect target at one of our 300 meter matches, all twenty shots have to hit a 1 5/8 inch circle at 300 meters. This doesn't happen often by the way!
As I said before, I have seen some pretty common barrels which would shoot at or near the 1 moa level. This includes some barrels which were obviously flawed. I recall one Weatherby MKV which featured a bulge about 2 inches back from the muzzle. I would have bet money that this particular rifle would have trouble staying on the paper but it shot 1" groups regularly. My own '03 Springfield shot 3/4 inch five shot groups often enough to be interesting in spite of some significant pitting four inchs back. The fact that a rifle can perform well inspite of a flawed barrel certainly doesn't mean a good barrel isn't better.
With the top grade barrels, the best barrel may not be a lot better than the best barrel from a lesser maker but the worst barrel will be a lot better than it's lower priced counterpart. So, the extra money is buying consistency. It is also buying pride of ownership which is often nearly as important as the performance!
From a gunsmithing standpoint, the better barrels are also better-and easier- to work with. They are straighter and bore dimensions are more consistent. This makes setup easier and quicker to accomplish and allows one to have more confidence that the job will go well. Regards, Bill.

Thanks for that post Bill.....I'm seeing that the ultrapremium and very expensive barrels are basically intended for bench rest shooters and .....as you say...those that insist on the best.....and are willing to pay for it.

I've long believed that certain characteristics of the action was very important to accuracy and also believed that the fitting of the barrel to the action was important and there's no doubt that the way the barreled action is bedded to the stock is vital. Also it's long been clear that no matter what barrel one buys it's the way it's fitted and bedded that allows it to be accurate and if the ammo don't match.....well it's for nothing.

If I ever start to build strictly target rifles I'll review the ultra barrel makers....but for now I think some of the cheaper barrels ...assuming proper fitting and bedding...will perform to the best needs I can have. 1 1/4" groups in a .270 make me very happy indeed and I fully understand that there's a lot of scales out there that will call it 1/2"

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Originally posted by vapodog:
1 1/4" groups in a .270 make me very happy indeed and I fully understand that there's a lot of scales out there that will call it 1/2"

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Vapodog,

A well described and worthy topic.

I think what we are seeing here is;

1- a tendancy to gravitate to the same theroys that have served well in days gone by, and.

2- The results of better barrel making technology.


NBHunter was spot on with his assesment. Even the low end barrel makers have the equipment it takes to make a very accurate bbl, nowadays the difference is going to be in quality of workmanship which may or may not have an effect on the outcome of accuracy at the low end, but when you pop for a better brand you can EXPECT it to perform.

I suppose that really hasnt changed, but the ability to make better bbls certianly has.

Apparently Jim Charmichael feels that a Douglas is plenty good for his purposes. So do I.

I also must note one caveate relevant to this disgussion reguarding the "get what you pay for" approach. Not all factory arms are built with accuracy in mind. Much as I like my Ruger #1, for about half the cost I could have had a button rifled Savage vs the hammer forged bbl it wears and 9 times out of 10 the Savage will outshoot the Ruger.

It helps to know exactly what you are paying for.

Usually have used douglas all my life,buying a expensive barrel doesn,t guarantee accuracy!! There are so many factors in accuracy that we can just elilminate one at a time then hoope for the best when dialing in our gun. For my money i will stay with douglas!! Never gone wrong with them. vangunsmith

I own more than a couple of rifles, and been in the accuracy game for years. I have several "custom" rifles I have built up on premium barrels over the years. Recently I purchased a Remington 700 Milspec in 308 and have been delighted in that with match ammo this rifle is one of the most accurate rifles in my rack. I don't have it fully broke in yet, and it needs another 100-150 rounds before that is complete. I have yet to get a custom reload round through it yet, it will happen this year when I get some time free.

But .5 MOA is a reality with this rifle, consistantly. I measure outside to outside, not center to center, and five shot groups. Next level is 20 shots, first shot, then 5 clicks right..shot, five clicks down...shot, five left..shot, five up shot. 4 targets, 5 shots, shooting a square. Measure each group, sum and average. .5 MOA on that routine is very very tough. I haven't got serious on the range with this rifle yet, but with a trigger change I am extermely optomistic this will happen this year. When I get a couple of targets through the above, I figure I will have a all day .5 MOA rifle, not before. Currently I am playing with promising capability.

Recently I ran across a Weatherby, with a Krieger barrel, that is showing it is capable of this accuracy. SIngle 5 shot groups were exceptional, again a rifle with a lot of potential.

Factory guns can be very good in this day and age, not every rifle by any means, but the factories are producing some very high quality stuff in select models. Don't expect to get one a Walmart, and model and individual rifle factor into this, but based on a very few of the total rifles I have been exposed to in the last 3-4 years, the factories are producing some very accurate rifles.

But claims of numbers below .5 MOA even on a full custom rig, tested to the above flag me. I am working on reducing that by .1 to a consistant .4 MOA on a couple of my rifles and that .1 and consistant are lofty goals. If and when I get a rifle that gets the above test down to .35 MOA you will see me at benchrest matches and placing in matches in the hunter
( factory class ). Cause that is winners circle quality. I pay some attention to the benchrest results and Remington is the big manufacturer in this class, Savages a making moves in this class, with the odd Sako, Winchester, and the rare Weatherby.

I see a lot of claims on sub .5MOA rifles, unfortuantely I see few that truely measure up. They are out there and the factories are making them, but box stock sub .5 MOA rifle is a real keeper.

Back on topic yes the factories are doing some very good quality barrels, but if your chasing the winners circle at benchrest matches, outside of the factory rifle class your odds are very tall your going to get into the winners circle. This is where the expensive custom barrels shine. When your investing dollars into a hunting rifle you are paying for that quality.

I agree wholeheartly with the statement about the pipefitter and the pipe previously posted. The only caveat is I don't care how good a pipefitter you are if I give you substandard pipe, you will produce a crappy product in the end.

The comment on Adams and Bennet barrels, triggers my response, "I don't use fenceposts on my rifles". If your looking to save money on rifle barrels look at Douglas "X" grades good barrels at an attractive price.