quote:

I’m sure Mark will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that he does his octagon jobs on used barrels...only on new, high quality ones that have been stress relieved by the maker.

Rick, can you name for me one barrel manufacturer that does not stress relieve their barrels?

Interesting thread, it contains a lot of wife's tails and misinformation.

If you want to cut the barrel, cut it. If it walks a little so be it, it was already crooked. If its stressed, it is moving around when you are shooting it hot. Unless you turn it pencil thin the bore size won't change. All barrels are stress relieved, some better than others.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I’m sure Mark will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that he does his octagon jobs on used barrels...only on new, high quality ones that have been stress relieved by the maker.

Rick, can you name for me one barrel manufacturer that does not stress relieve their barrels?

If Mark wants to share the name of the man that made the barrel I was told about then that’s his business since it didn’t involve me.

In other words.....you can't name one barrel maker that don't stress relieve their barrels.....

That was the question.....was it not?.

Wow,I didn't know there were so many experts on this forum. Guess I better throw my 2 cents in... I usually buy my barrels as unturned blanks, I have contoured 400+in the last 40+ years. I have turned the round, milled them octagon, fluted them, using mostly Douglas, Shilen, Hart, and a few of the other makers. Problems have been almost non-exsistant. Once I traded for a Shaw or Wilson barrel that was contoured to a very heavy sporter contour, I decided to turn it to a lighter contour, man you talk about warp. It must not have been stress relieved and really rainbowed. I have also turned M98 and Swedish barrels to remove the steps, never had any problems with accuracy and some of these ended up really light.

I don't think there is any way to predict what may happen, for all I know the next barrel I turn may look like a bow tie before I'm done with it. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
In other words.....you can't name one barrel maker that don't stress relieve their barrels.....

That was the question.....was it not?.

My answer was that I “won’t†name someone on a public forum...not that I “can’t.†I was only told of the incident so I do not feel comfortable in mentioning the makers name since it had nothing to do with me. That’s why I referred the gentleman to ask Mark about it.

For the longest time ER Shaws barrels were notorious for quality issues. True, their market was the lower end spender, but back then it seemed that everyone was buying them.

I was so turned off with the crap that was produced by them throughout the 80's, that today, I would have a very difficult time trusting, or, recommending anything coming from them. They may have changed, I don't know, but their reputation for producing inferior stuff still lingers in the air.

Adams and Bennett is another one I would question. I have re-crowned many of these, and their bores are generally way off center. To be fair, they are one of the friendliest barrels I've seen. I have looked through many A&B barrels and have actually caught myself "waving" back.

quote:

I know that I was careful to say that things “may†change

Aren't you just the clever one.

Especially when you haven't got a firsthand foggy on the subject.

Yea, your recontoured barrel might not shoot like you want (I'm still trying to find someone here in that camp), but your newly installed Hart might not shoot for poop eigther.

Chuck

Before......



After.......



Result......



Did I mention I saved about $500 by turning the barrel?

I'd say I picked the right componentry the first time. Wouldn't you Rick?

Chuck

Yeah, I have some of those targets shot at 25 yards also!

So Rick, have you ever shot a barrel that has been recontoured? Have you ever recontoured a barrel?

Chuck

I have said it before and I will say it again, I really like that Bill Leeper Rifle you have there. Looks nice but you can still take it in the woods and shoot it across a very long valley. Nice shooting!!!!

Malm

I am looking at an A & B barrel and I don't see any waiving. Maybe time for you to get new glasses.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Malm

I am looking at an A & B barrel and I don't see any waiving. Maybe time for you to get new glasses.

First off, you have to know what you're looking at. And, just so I don't have to see this:

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
"Are you saying I don't know what I'm looking at?"

Let me say it now, YES, that is exactly what I am saying.

Secondly, since you obviously don't have the trained eye that would enable you to see small imperfections in a bore, you will need to put the barrel into motion to actually see it wave at you, which means you need to spin it. So, put it in your lathe and spin it. Don't get dizzy, fall over and hurt yourself.

And YES I meant, "don't get dizzy, fall over and hurt yourself!"

Malm

what university did you send your eyes to in order to get them trained?

Are you sure it's not flipping you the bird instead of waving?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Malm

what university did you send your eyes to in order to get them trained?

That would be the U of E, University of Experience.

What's the matter with you dempsy, strain your ovaries did ya?

Just a question Malm, you must share your sense of humor with Rick. I don't think your wives would approve of ovarie jokes.

Haven't seen anyone mention the CRYO treatment..though a skeptic at one time, I'm now convinced this process keeps risk of warp to minimum. Kreiger, I believe cryo's their barrels and offers the option of a double cryo..they must believe it i also

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Haven't seen anyone mention the CRYO treatment..though a skeptic at one time, I'm now convinced this process keeps risk of warp to minimum. Kreiger, I believe cryo's their barrels and offers the option of a double cryo..they must believe it i also

What has convinced you of this? I'm curious because I'm still on the sidelines on this issue. I don't think it does any harm, but I'm not ready to commit my customers dollars on something that I don't see firm data regarding. I read a lot of opinions, but very little data supporting either position.

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
Just a question Malm, you must share your sense of humor with Rick. I don't think your wives would approve of ovarie jokes.

Wives??? Oh yeah, I get it. The mormon thing... Funny!

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Haven't seen anyone mention the CRYO treatment..though a skeptic at one time, I'm now convinced this process keeps risk of warp to minimum. Kreiger, I believe cryo's their barrels and offers the option of a double cryo..they must believe it i also

What has convinced you of this? I'm curious because I'm still on the sidelines on this issue. I don't think it does any harm, but I'm not ready to commit my customers dollars on something that I don't see firm data regarding. I read a lot of opinions, but very little data supporting either position.

But now that we're at it.....I must agree here.....until I see something concrete (not the spilling of emotion and raw opinion) I wouldn't spend a dime for something that has no REAL value.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Haven't seen anyone mention the CRYO treatment..though a skeptic at one time, I'm now convinced this process keeps risk of warp to minimum. Kreiger, I believe cryo's their barrels and offers the option of a double cryo..they must believe it i also

What has convinced you of this? I'm curious because I'm still on the sidelines on this issue. I don't think it does any harm, but I'm not ready to commit my customers dollars on something that I don't see firm data regarding. I read a lot of opinions, but very little data supporting either position.

Malm

If your so big on the "University of Experience, how come you haven't done this with a few of your own barrels so you know what you are committing your customers money to rather than relying on other's opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
If your so big on the "University of Experience, how come you haven't done this with a few of your own barrels so you know what you are committing your customers money to rather than relying on other's opinions.

Well, because of MY experience, I don't happen to see the need to do it. Now when I hear something that catches my attention, then I will look into the matter further. But for now, much like this conversation with you, I feel it's a waste of time.

My wife thought the "strain yer ovaries" comment was hilarious. Hey.....she said it not me.

On another note.....and forgive me Im just a dumb stockmaker. If you remove more material from the INSIDE (ie - reboring) would that not also cause potential problems?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Haven't seen anyone mention the CRYO treatment..though a skeptic at one time, I'm now convinced this process keeps risk of warp to minimum. Kreiger, I believe cryo's their barrels and offers the option of a double cryo..they must believe it i also

Hot Core mentioned this early on in the discussion.

quote:

If you remove more material from the INSIDE (ie - reboring) would that not also cause potential problems?

IMO no it won't. That is of course no significant heat is incurred.....one must use sharp tools and a reasonable coolant.

Even button rifling is insignificant in producing stress.....it does....but small. Further any stress involved is symetric to the bore and will not cause trouble.

Button rifling is similar to "express tapping" or thread forming where the tap used does not cut the thread but actually pushes material to form a thread.

I've never found any issues related to stress in the materials using these taps.....from this I assume that button rifling incurrs minor stress at the best.

Machining does not produce stress.....it relieves it when the stress is already present in the steel and causes the material to bow...look like a banana.

Reboring and rifling an existing barrel is not at all likely to create any stress that is noticeable to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Malm

If your so big on the "University of Experience, how come you haven't done this with a few of your own barrels so you know what you are committing your customers money to rather than relying on other's opinions.

This is pretty funny coming from the guy that started this by wanting to know if there were any possible drawbacks or problems to re-contouring a used barrel...as opposed to contouring a new blank.

If you already know the answer (or think you do anyway) then why ask the question?

Despite what some keep trying to tell you, there are in fact some “possible†drawbacks/problems that some of us thought you might want to at least consider prior to forking over your money to have this done.

Use the info anyway you choose to, its your rifle and your barrel, but you are foolish (IMO) to just discount anything that doesn’t automatically follow what you want to hear.

Mr. Lepper even alluded to the fact that “some†of the ones he has done shot worse than they did before they were re-contoured.

I’m normally pretty patient with ignorance (including my own), it‘s the people that seem to be proud of their ignorance that I lose patients with.

quote:

This is pretty funny coming from the guy that started this by wanting to know if there were any possible drawbacks or problems to re-contouring a used barrel...as opposed to contouring a new blank.

At no time was it ever stated that this was a used barrel.....as a matter of fact it is (as stated) a new barrel.

Get the facts correct please. It had been fitted, chambered and test fired once.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

If you remove more material from the INSIDE (ie - reboring) would that not also cause potential problems?

IMO no it won't. That is of course no significant heat is incurred.....one must use sharp tools and a reasonable coolant.

Even button rifling is insignificant in producing stress.....it does....but small. Further any stress involved is symetric to the bore and will not cause trouble.

Button rifling is similar to "express tapping" or thread forming where the tap used does not cut the thread but actually pushes material to form a thread.

I've never found any issues related to stress in the materials using these taps.....from this I assume that button rifling incurrs minor stress at the best.

Machining does not produce stress.....it relieves it when the stress is already present in the steel and causes the material to bow...look like a banana.

Reboring and rifling an existing barrel is not at all likely to create any stress that is noticeable to anyone.

There you go Bill! Any other questions???

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

This is pretty funny coming from the guy that started this by wanting to know if there were any possible drawbacks or problems to re-contouring a used barrel...as opposed to contouring a new blank.

At no time was it ever stated that this was a used barrel.....as a matter of fact it is (as stated) a new barrel.

Get the facts correct please. It had been fitted, chambered and test fired once.

Oh, okay...then a “new†barrel is one that just hasn’t been fired ALLOT????????? I have a couple of “new†cars I’ll sell you!

I have a swede barrel that shot worse after taking the steps out, still hunting accuracy, so I havnt shed to many tears over it.
My question is, and I hope this doesnt start another pissing match... Is there any differance grinding a new contour as opposed to cutting one?

I’m normally pretty patient with ignorance (including my own), it‘s the people that seem to be proud of their ignorance that I lose patients with. [/QUOTE]

Rick

You are alluding to me being ignorant and you can't even spell patience correctly!!!!!

As Vapodog has reminded everyone, what I originally asked through my first few posts was whether a new barrel will suffer from further contouring. The barrel has fired ONE shot. That is why I continued to ask about folks such as David Miller and Mark Stratton who recontour new barrels. I think I even stated on a couple of occasions as to whether recontouring a new barrel isn't anything more than a continuation of the original contouring. Next thing I know this turns into a discussion of used barrels, and the quality of barrels, and putting down certain brands of barrels, and putting down people who don't spend lots of money on rebarreling. And you call me ignorant.

I know this sounds funny coming from me but this thread could use a respectful burial. Full honors for the combatants, of course.

Gentlemen & others:

This has been a very interesting and educational discussion for me. Back in the mid 60's I got to be a pretty damned skilled latheman. Then the plant closed down and I couldn't find another machinists job anywhere around here. As I had little kids to feed and a wife to make happy I took the next job that paid decently and stuck with it: over the road truck driver until being away so much cost me that family. The second time around when the same problems cropped up, I changed careers again. This time to college educated weldor with more machining, and worked welding for others and myself. I have never turned a barrel, but, I've made lot's of very tight tolerance items out of many different materials. Enough steel numbers to make it sound much like a powder listing. I've found some materials that flopped around on the lathe from stress when new. Broke a tool post off once when that happened on the job. The foreman was immensly unhappy about that. but, when he used a section to find out whether I was lying to him, he discovered the same thing. The whole bundle of steel was returned to the maker.

I've seen steel laid out on the ground, concrete floors and racks that when the sun hit them, they'd move around like a snake. Pipe, rails, and various shapes and sizes of steel.
I'm fully convinced the main reason rails are spiked to the ties so closely together is to keep them within tolerable spacings from the heat, shade and cold rather than to support the weight they do. Surely that statement will draw some crude comment from 22wcf.

I'm impressed with the majority of you fellows staying out of the argument he's doing his best to create. Malm, you for one must have one hell of a tolerance for asshole's. You should be proud of that ability. I'm not capable of that.

Bill Leeper, Chuck, Malm and several others have done their best to politely explain the variables of their experience's in turning, or machining barrels in a way the rest of us can understand. That's the purpose of this discussion far as I'm concerned. I for one, appreciate all this information and feel bad about the one, or two a/h's that work so hard to start an argument just because they are that type that can't accept the fact that others know a hell of a lot more than they do. Yeah, there's another one coming!! My first wife was much the same way too.

I read the link by G. Kolbe and learned a lot from that too. Finally learning why gun barrels are not heat treated to gain their extreme hardness using the same steels that are used to make chisels, drills, and punch's. I have always wondered why 4140, 4130, and 416 was left so soft when used for guns. Now I know why. Whoever posted that link, thank you very much.

Ok, a little about where I'm coming from to save questioning. I've been reloading since 1958, never a br, nor long range match shooter. Just a general ammo burning elk hunter that enjoys shooting for the sake of shooting. And shooting thousands of prairie dogs whenever I can. My favorite hunting rifle is an old Eddystone with a nearly smooth bore rechambered to .300WinM, with the original barrel full length. Long as it'll put all my hunting bullets on a typing page at 300yds, that's all I'd ever ask of it. I generally shoot it 100-400 shots per year.

From '58 til 73 it was an '06 and I just loaded different wt bullets for elk, deer, antelope and p/dogs which would get 110's that would create an honest red mist, not a clump of stewmeat. This gun has blown thousands up.

In '72 I bought a Sako Vixen .222Mag and proceded to cull the p/dogs all I could. After the first 100 factory Rems, the load was 25gr 4895 and the cheapest 55gr I could find. After some 6000 rounds thru it the barrel lost it's accuracy and was replaced by a A&B cryo treated.

Let me explain about these two barrels a bit. The Sako tube came new and still is, with at least three and maybe four places along the bore enlarged so much a slug pushed thru it will completely lose contact with the bore for a few inches. One place is about 4" long. Yet, it's tight the last 3-4" of the muzzle and never shot a group larger than a dime until the last 500 shots. The outside is straight. On the original stock it was bedded tight against the wood. My gunsmith said to float the barrel and see if that helps. I did, and it brought it back from 6-8" to about 1" for maybe 400 shots when it lost it's hold again. While he was making the new barrel I shot about another 100 rounds which scattered all over the place and never consistant. It just would not group, nor stay put.

I was broke at the time and it was during fur season which I used to pay for the repairs. An acquaintence insisted enough the blank be cryo treated that he offered to pay for it. So, I sent it to Kathy@300 below and had her freeze it before anything had been done to the blank. I wouldn't and couldn't have paid for it myself due to the financial situation I was in at the time.

My gunsmith turns lot's of barrels, I have no idea how many, but, there's one being turned almost all the time on his two lathe's. He's made a living 'smithing since 1976 and is the best there is in this town. He's also very reasonable and quick with his work. After he'd turned this blank to my specs: ".650" at muzzle, 26" long, enough iron left so it can be rechambered if & when it's shot out again." After that, I left it up to him. He stated: "this was the easiest turning piece of steel I've ever turned, from now on all barrels I turn will be cryo treated before turning instead of after".

I'm very happy with the results. This is my very first rebarreling job, my first restocking from a blank at the same time. The little 6# gun weighs over 10# now, which is just fine with me as it FITS my extra long arms now and never did as it came new.

Another friend donated 25 each of 15 different .224" bullets so I could develope the best load this barrel was capable of. I had 4 other bullets for a total of 19 from 35-55gr. All were loaded the same: 25gr AA2200 and various brass, no particular brand. The gun was rechambered to .223 this time. Loading and shooting five of each eliminated all but 6 bullets the first batch. These I loaded ten more and fired them in two groups. El cheapo Rem's 55gr, and 40gr V Max turned out to be the most accurate in this gun. Just under half inch for the 55's which is what I shoot p/dogs with and buy by the pound for about 3-4 cents each. The .40gr are used around livestock where a richochette cannot be tolerated and for fur killing of coyotes. When out of fur season I don't care if they're blown up as they are just left laying where shot most times.

The v max 40's groups were impressive to all that have seen them. All shots were fired at 100yds at the Pueblo West range from sandbags on the bench. These 40gr V Max made five shots in .260"-300", several different times. Steve Hugel the varmint writer I was hunting with at the time kept repeating without explanation what he meant: "That shoots like a house afire". He can't shoot this gun because he's a little short guy barely over 5' tall, and the LOP is a full 14 3/4". The gun has about 500 shots thru it now, all with this AA2200 load. I may change it as yesterday I blew a primer. This is a max load for this gun.

Whether this frozen barrel lasts as long as the Sako, or not will have to be seen. It is smooth full length of the bore. So IMO that makes it much better than the original Sako barrel to start with. I'd sure buy another A&B when time come's to get a new barrel for any gun. Sure this experience is a: BUT Once situation. I've been told But once, don't count a damn bit.

Malm may be right about these barrels waving back. Maybe someday he can come over the mtn and take a look at this Sako barrel and compare these two. As I imported the gun while in the Army myself, Stoeger wouldn't even reply to my letters about replacing the barrel. After that, I'd never buy anything from Stoegers. I wasn't asking Them to replace it at n/c. I was only asking for help/suggestions and advice on getting Sako to replace it. They couldn't even reply, so f/em.

I'm rambled long enough. I won't reply to any argumentive shit from anyone. This is just to voice my experience for anyone that cares to read it.

Thank you,

George

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I’m normally pretty patient with ignorance (including my own), it‘s the people that seem to be proud of their ignorance that I lose patients with.

Rick

You are alluding to me being ignorant and you can't even spell patience correctly!!!!!

As Vapodog has reminded everyone, what I originally asked through my first few posts was whether a new barrel will suffer from further contouring. The barrel has fired ONE shot. That is why I continued to ask about folks such as David Miller and Mark Stratton who recontour new barrels. I think I even stated on a couple of occasions as to whether recontouring a new barrel isn't anything more than a continuation of the original contouring. Next thing I know this turns into a discussion of used barrels, and the quality of barrels, and putting down certain brands of barrels, and putting down people who don't spend lots of money on rebarreling. And you call me ignorant. [/QUOTE]


If you were to sell this barrel would you list it as “new†or as “used?â€

Rick, I just want to know if you have anything to base your baseless opinions on? You seem to be ducking the subject and questions.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

If you remove more material from the INSIDE (ie - reboring) would that not also cause potential problems?

IMO no it won't. That is of course no significant heat is incurred.....one must use sharp tools and a reasonable coolant.

Even button rifling is insignificant in producing stress.....it does....but small. Further any stress involved is symetric to the bore and will not cause trouble.

Button rifling is similar to "express tapping" or thread forming where the tap used does not cut the thread but actually pushes material to form a thread.

I've never found any issues related to stress in the materials using these taps.....from this I assume that button rifling incurrs minor stress at the best.

Machining does not produce stress.....it relieves it when the stress is already present in the steel and causes the material to bow...look like a banana.

Reboring and rifling an existing barrel is not at all likely to create any stress that is noticeable to anyone.

There you go Bill! Any other questions???

Malm...if you have a differing opinion feel free to post it....it's a lot better than to just look like an asshole!!!!

quote:

My first wife was much the same way too.

Georgeld

That and your name calling tells me all I need to know about you.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
it's a lot better than to just look like an asshole!!!!

I think you are handling that part very well!

As far as I can tell from this thread, the only guys that know antything about the pros and cons regarding recontouring a rifle barrel (new or used) are those who have had it done and seen the results or those who have done it themselves. If the shoe fits, wear it.