Are they really stainless or not. I have been buying stainless barrels from several different manufacturers for projects. Something that I have found is that I'm not sure they are stainless. I bought 2 Pac-nor barrels and after soldering the sights on them I used cold blue to darken the ramps. The cold blue blued the quote stainless barrel also. Well I just figured this cold blue would blue stainless also. I had also just finished a gun with a Shilen stainless barrel and it did the same thing when I blued the sights. I purchased another barrel from an individual that was supposed to be a stainless Pac-nor barrel. After getting the barrel mounted and test fired I set it aside for a month or so before I went to finish it. The bore was full of light rust and took a lot of scrubbing with JB to get the bore clean. After seeing all of this I started checking other barrels with this Super Blue cold blue to see if they blued also. My Kreiger barrels will not darken at all with this blue. Several other factory stainless would not take blue either. Have any of you had this same problem with Quote stainless barrels?

Sam

It all depends on the grade of stainless material the manufacturer uses. I do not have my stainless data with me as I am out of town but it surely can be gotten on the net somewhere. Some stainless steels are magnetic and will develope rust film and generally not any pitting. Some stainless will not rust or corrode under any conditions. These are the types used in chemical/salt water applications. Also the higher the nickel and chromium content the more resistant to heat transfer and deterioration. This is why stainless is often used in industrial applications. (This can be beneficial in the throat areas of a barrel however the stainless that are used are usually softer than the chrome-moly so it becomes a toss up.)

By coincidense (spell) I just spoke to Krieger Barrel last week. They told me they use 310 stainless and I believe they also said on occassion a 306 grade for certain applications. This is due to their cut rifle process as I was told and it gives them the finish they require. A side note, because of the type of stainless (310) and the cut rifling process that Krieger uses they tell me that they cannot make the smaller contours ie, "featherweight, mountain rifle" barrels in stainless. This is because of the lesser yield and tensile strengths of the 310 stainless vs chrome-moly. I am finding that the barrel makers who use the button rifle process apparently can make the more narrow/lighter contours in a stainless steel.



From my own knowledge, many stainless barrels are of a lower grade stainless which are more ferrous and contain less quantities of nickel and chromium. These barrels are the ones that will develope a rust film and are also somewhat magnetic due to the higher levels of ferrous (iron) material in them. (metallurgy)

I think that because of the button rifle process (as well as initial cost) that is used by some of the manufacturers, the more ferrous type stainless steels are used for this process.

Perhaps ButchLambert can elaborate more on this for everyone.

Most stainless barrels are 400 series and are magnetic. Now the reason any stainless barrel will rust is due more to how it was machined then it's iron content. If the barrel is not pasivated after final turning small particles can become inbeded in the surface causing the spoty rust we all see on stainless parts. Either way it should not blue or at least not blue very well. Back when I didn't know any better I tried to blue a piece of 440 and it would look like it bluer but you coul just wipe it right off and it woul only mildly discolor the steel. Now as for using a 300 series steel it is possible and it is much more corrosion resistant then 400 series. It is not as strong as 400 because it can not be heat treated. It is used as is from the mill and is on the soft side compared to CM steel or even 400 series stainless. That is the reason they want to leave the contours on the heavy side. 300 series will produce a very nice surface finish though

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
That is the reason they want to leave the contours on the heavy side. 300 series will produce a very nice surface finish though

So, are you explaining why Kreiger won't turn their stainless barrels in the sporter contours? They have a minimum contour, depending on the bore, and I forget the specs, but as I remember a #3 contour in .308 is smaller than minimum. A #3 contour is easily available from other barrel makers in stainless steel.

So, are you saying that the other barrel makers are not using 300 series steel, but 400 instead, which accounts for the difference?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
That is the reason they want to leave the contours on the heavy side. 300 series will produce a very nice surface finish though

So, are you explaining why Kreiger won't turn their stainless barrels in the sporter contours? They have a minimum contour, depending on the bore, and I forget the specs, but as I remember a #3 contour in .308 is smaller than minimum. A #3 contour is easily available from other barrel makers in stainless steel.

So, are you saying that the other barrel makers are not using 300 series steel, but 400 instead, which accounts for the difference?

KB

Every barrel maker has different dimensions for their contours. A #3 from Shilen will not be the same as a #3 from Krieger or anywhere else. Comparing same # contours from different makers is comparing apples and oranges.

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:
Every barrel maker has different dimensions for their contours. A #3 from Shilen will not be the same as a #3 from Krieger or anywhere else. Comparing same # contours from different makers is comparing apples and oranges.

That's a novel way to avoid the question. Seems that every time I approach this subject, there is always someone or many someone's who want to defeat the question.

So, I'll ask it another way. Here's a link to Kreiger's web site - contours: http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/...ces-c1246-wp3390.htm

Notice for example that the .308 barrel is offered in #0 contour for CM, but the smallest for SS is #5. That's what I'm talking about, regardless of comparison to other maker's actual contour dimensions. Surely a Shilen or PacNor #2 contour in SS is smaller than the Kreiger #5.

The discussion is about the character of the steel -- 300 compared to 400, or whatever. My basic question is Kreiger SS different compared to say Douglas, Shilen, or PacNor??

If you don't know, that's OK. A red herring will be called what it is.

KB

Most of your barrel makers use 416. That seems to be the most common barrel steel for stainless. It's a high carbon stainless and can be heat treated. In my wildest dreams I would never have thought that anyone would use 310,304,316 as a barrel steel because it's not able to be heat treated. But it would stand to reason that you could use a material that has a lower yield stregth you just have to use more of it.
Remember just because the supplier labels it as stainless doesn't classify it in any perticular grade. That like saying it made out of steel. Well what kind?? What alloying elements??

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
In my wildest dreams I would never have thought that anyone would use 310,304,316 as a barrel steel because it's not able to be heat treated. But it would stand to reason that you could use a material that has a lower yield stregth you just have to use more of it.

Thanks. That's useful info.

So, I'm reading what you are saying is that Kreiger is not using a 400 series stainless steel. So, that accounts for their need to set a minimum contour much larger than that offered by other makers, who are using a 400 series steel, probably 416. Am I reading that correct?

KB

I'm not sure what they use. Someone else said they used 310. Now it could also be as simple as it's tougher to machine. Stainless, any stainless can be a pain to machine especially trying to cut a taper on a 30" long tube. Not my idea of easy lathe work. Stainless in general is not as structurally strong as 4140. Some stainless is stronger then others

Well, it's good to know that this forum is consistant and true to much of the info on the internet. In no way, do we want to distinguish this forum, by acually sputing factual info. Oh, how we cherish our hearsay and speculation.

BTW, I have called Kreiger and asked this question, and they avoid (evade) the answer, claiming it's Proprietary info.

KB

The 300 series is much too difficult to machine , it's 'gummy' as machinists call it.
416 is a free machining grade of 410 ,both can be HT'd but 416 is easier to machine therefore used for barrels.
Crucible makes 416R which has tighter control of the sulfur especially on the high end. It's the sulfur that makes it free machining.
Sometimes a PH stainless is used.

KB, the above is metallurgical fact, written by me a metallurgist !!

I've got a Winchester featherweight contour 270 WSM stainless cut rifled Krieger barrel. Had to order it special and they did use a different grade of stainless then the norm they use ( don't know the difference). They did this for me about 4 years ago for a slight up charge...

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
KB, the above is metallurgical fact, written by me a metallurgist !!

Careful, you'll confuse us with the facts.

KB

Rae59 posted the following "By coincidense (spell) I just spoke to Krieger Barrel last week. They told me they use 310 stainless and I believe they also said on occassion a 306 grade for certain applications."

Wasn't me that originally said the use a 300 series. I just said it would stand to reason that if they did they would have to maintain a minimum contour.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Most stainless barrels are 400 series and are magnetic. Now the reason any stainless barrel will rust is due more to how it was machined then it's iron content. If the barrel is not pasivated after final turning small particles can become inbeded in the surface causing the spoty rust we all see on stainless parts. Either way it should not blue or at least not blue very well. Back when I didn't know any better I tried to blue a piece of 440 and it would look like it bluer but you coul just wipe it right off and it woul only mildly discolor the steel. Now as for using a 300 series steel it is possible and it is much more corrosion resistant then 400 series. It is not as strong as 400 because it can not be heat treated. It is used as is from the mill and is on the soft side compared to CM steel or even 400 series stainless. That is the reason they want to leave the contours on the heavy side. 300 series will produce a very nice surface finish though

At my shop, I have several pieces of stainless steel plate that have a rusted film on them from moisture and they are also somewhat magnetic. None of it was machined other than having been rolled at the mill.

It is the % of the iron content that makes them rust and be magnetic as it is also mostly the % of the nickel and chromium that makes them not subject to rust. Primarily it is carbon content that gives strength and hardness to a point where it will become brittle and easily breakable. There are other elements, particularly in the exotic metals, that aid in the process but it is mostly carbon content in steel.
They (the metallurgist) do have steels that are extremely hard and also will not rust or corrode under any condition and they can be polished to a mirror finish. I have also seen case hardened steels that will shatter a hammer and flatten any center punch you have and shatter any machine tool you choose to use.

The metallury boys can pretty much give you anything you want....provided you are willing to pay for it.

Mete, Please correct me if I stated anything that is not correct.

Rolling at the mill is enough to impregnate the material with bits of iron. Happens all the. I'm not saying that 400 series is rust proof. No steel is. What I'm saying is if you get a chunk of 400 series and have it pasivated or electro polished it will resist corroding far longer the a raw part or even one that has being machined and polished.

And even aluminum is magnetic to a very low degree. Use a magnet strong enough and 300 series will stick no sweat.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Rae59 posted the following "By coincidense (spell) I just spoke to Krieger Barrel last week. They told me they use 310 stainless and I believe they also said on occassion a 306 grade for certain applications."

Wasn't me that originally said the use a 300 series. I just said it would stand to reason that if they did they would have to maintain a minimum contour.

I swear that is what the gentleman told me. He made no mention of it being proprietary information. I don't believe he said 410 stainless. I was on a cell phone when we spoke. He DID say that I could not get a smaller contour barrel in a stainless as opposed to the C-M barrel.
In any event I think Krieger barrels speak for themselves as far as quality and accuracy. I also found them to be VERY friendly and helpful over the phone. I will be going back to Krieger in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Rolling at the mill is enough to impregnate the material with bits of iron. Happens all the. I'm not saying that 400 series is rust proof. No steel is. What I'm saying is if you get a chunk of 400 series and have it pasivated or electro polished it will resist corroding far longer the a raw part or even one that has being machined and polished.

And even aluminum is magnetic to a very low degree. Use a magnet strong enough and 300 series will stick no sweat.

Kcstott, I am merely telling you what I know and not trying to be arguementative. I also have some other stainless plates that were rolled and they do not have any rust film and are not magnetic using the same magnet. I do agree that if you used a strong enough magnet that you should get some "pull" at some point as stainless does have some percentage of iron in it's content. Don't know if I agree with the aluminum part though.

The socalled stainless used for barrelmfg, is generally what i would describe as a moderat rust inhibited mildsteel.
Most strength and Rockwell tests i have performed on SS barrelsteel, showes figures at roomtemp, from 25% to 40% less strength than CrMo steel.
At temp 20deg below freezingpoint, the strength of most SS barrelsteel is form 40% to 60% weaker than CrMo at the same temp.
I guess the reason Krieger recomends a more beefy contour, is simply because they now the strength of SS steel, and is a respectable and responcible company.

When I went home for lunch, I tried the magnetic thing with a Brownells screwdriver handle - no bit.

I put it up against several stainless barrels, including a Shilen, PacNor, Lilja, Douglas, and some Ruger factory barrels (no Kreigers). They all attracted the magnet. I have purchased at least two used Ruger stainless rifles that showed some corrosion and pitting, upon close inspection, both action and barrel. They had been used around salt water.

I emailed the barrel maker that I use the most, and asked about their steel. They reported that they use 416 R SS and 4140 CM.

Last year I started sending my stainless rifles - the ones that are proven keepers - to have them black or gray T coated. Some are both color. It takes a while for turn-around, so gradually I'll probably have them all coated. They just look better coated. I never have liked the looks of stainless, either matted or especially shiney. And stainless will rust. I have had to take one of those 3M pot scrubbers and work over a barrel or two, that I messed up and negelected too long.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I have had to take one of those 3M pot scrubbers and work over a barrel or two, that I messed up and negelected too long.

KB

Hopefully it was not steel wool as that just defeated the whole point of nocking off the rust.

Yes 400 series Stainless does rust and if you ever need to get rid of the minuet amount of rust that will accumulate please only use polishing compounds, scotch brite anything but steel wool or a wire wheel. All that will do is push more iron into the stainless and in a short time it will have rusted worse then the first time.

Keep in mind too for those that don't like the silver finish of stainless. It can be blued.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Don't know if I agree with the aluminum part though.

Well it won't stick to even the most powerful of magnets but it does produce line of flux and if you've ever fished with a reel that had Magnetic anti back lash. The adjustment on the reel, all it is doing is bring a magnet closer to the aluminum spool. the lines of flux create drag and slow the spool down.

And keep in mind I never said you were wrong. You expressed your experience and I expressed mine.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Hopefully it was not steel wool as that just defeated the whole point of nocking off the rust.

It was one of those abrasive pot scrubbers made out of some kind of synthetic stuff.

KB

Another metallurgist ( in a former life) tossing useless information into the breech (pun).

As advised by an earlier informed poster. Stainless steels are really only "rust' inhibited carbon steels.
Plain carbon steels react in air & moisture to form an oxide.various forms of oxide in fact. We call the oxides of carbon steel "rust", as the Fe203 oxide on the surface is the classical "rusty" colour. The nature of carbon steels leading to deepening oxide layer over time.

now contrary to popular belief that stainless steels don't rust, they infact have an oxide film on the surface that forms rapidly on exposure to air & moisture ,but different from plain carbon steels the oxide formed is not a simple iron oxide its a complex oxide that is not rusty coloured either...........its grey. It is a very thin layer , very,very thin, almost transparent as the stainless steel oxide layer is self passivating.

Ever noticed how a stainless steel cannot be polished mirror bright for very long. Its highly reflective , but not mirror bright. Its that tiny thin layer of rapidly forming oxide (GREY RUST)for want of a better word.
Another useless fact......a stainless shackle subject to movement in its duty will wear faster than a commercial grade carbon steel shackle, but will last longer than the carbon steel one if there is no movement.
its all to do with the movement continuously abraiding that thin layer of passive "grey rust" off the surface of the stainless and the higher reactivity of the unprotected surface compared to the slower reactivity of a rusty carbon steel shackle in the same duty.

Depending on the alloy content and the molecular structure of the surface of the steel, not all the grains are the same throughout the surface , nor is the matrix they are embedded in within the alloy, some of those grains have low alloy content and they are the ones that exhibit the RED rust as a plain ferrous oxide rather than the complex grey oxide of the stainless grains. Its why rusty stainless appears as a haze or stain rather than a deep rust coating............only a small proportion of the material is oxidising into Red rust.

As for the issue of larger profiles in SS barrels only being available compared to C/M barrels.
a) there is a strength difference between the two .
b) there is a modulus of rigidity difference between the two.
c) the grain structure of the two also influences the machinability of the various alloys & grades of steel & the tolerance to which the material can be machined.
Manufacturer's choices in pathway to creating a highly accurate barrel, with high machining & polishing tolerances, appropriate rigidity (barrel harmonics at discharge) & appropriate strength. determine the sensible minimum profile the material of choice will generate the required strength and accuracy of performance.
If Barrels were sold on looks the result might be different than barrels selling on accuracy.
Where the product sells on accuracy of its performance only a fool sells a barrel of dimensions that are not up to the task.
Kreiger have their own particular pathway to a highly accurate Stainless steel barrel and limit their profiles accordingly.

DISCLOSURE:
I just happen to have put a nice #4 C/M of theirs I had chambered in 20VT on an NIB CZ527 that was .222Rem when it arrived from the factory.
- not that it influences anything said above.

Krieger's stainless contour requirements certainly are different than other major barrel companies. For example, I had Hart rebarrel a rifle for me in 7mm-08 in Remington standard sporting contour. Krieger refused to make the same exact contour for 222 Remington.

I was mystified why a certain contour would be okay for Hart in 7mm-08, but Krieger said was too thin in a 222. Even more confusing, the Remington factory barrel that I wanted the contour copied was in 308 Winchester. What is okay for Remington in 308 isn't sufficient for Krieger in 222. Taking it a step further, Pac-nor made a stainless barrel for me in 8mm using the same contour. There are three possibilities I can think of that explain the difference with Hart:

1) Krieger uses very different stainless steel than Hart.

2) Krieger has higher accuracy expectations than Hart.

3) Krieger's lawyers have more control over operations than the lawyers at Hart.

I don't know the answer, but if I were forced to guess, I'd say it is number 3.

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
Krieger's stainless contour requirements certainly are different than other major barrel companies. For example, I had Hart rebarrel a rifle for me in 7mm-08 in Remington standard sporting contour. Krieger refused to make the same exact contour for 222 Remington.

I was mystified why a certain contour would be okay for Hart in 7mm-08, but Krieger said was too thin in a 222. Even more confusing, the Remington factory barrel that I wanted the contour copied was in 308 Winchester. What is okay for Remington in 308 isn't sufficient for Krieger in 222. Taking it a step further, Pac-nor made a stainless barrel for me in 8mm using the same contour. There are three possibilities I can think of that explain the difference with Hart:

1) Krieger uses very different stainless steel than Hart.

2) Krieger has higher accuracy expectations than Hart.

3) Krieger's lawyers have more control over operations than the lawyers at Hart.

I don't know the answer, but if I were forced to guess, I'd say it is number 3.

I'd bet money on it

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". William Shakespeare, King Henry the Sixth, Part II (Act IV, Scene II).

I think the opportunity to rectify the modern dilemma came and went in ancient times.

Nevertheless, joking aside, since we are well within the realm of speculation, I'll join in and spec that I think it ain't the lawyers causing Kreiger to make the choices re contours.

I see why you guys love your speculations and second-guessing so much. It provides so much freedom to not be restrained by facts. Ain't it fun? Might as well enjoy the internet to its full potential.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
Krieger's stainless contour requirements certainly are different than other major barrel companies. For example, I had Hart rebarrel a rifle for me in 7mm-08 in Remington standard sporting contour. Krieger refused to make the same exact contour for 222 Remington.

I was mystified why a certain contour would be okay for Hart in 7mm-08, but Krieger said was too thin in a 222. Even more confusing, the Remington factory barrel that I wanted the contour copied was in 308 Winchester. What is okay for Remington in 308 isn't sufficient for Krieger in 222. Taking it a step further, Pac-nor made a stainless barrel for me in 8mm using the same contour. There are three possibilities I can think of that explain the difference with Hart:

1) Krieger uses very different stainless steel than Hart.

2) Krieger has higher accuracy expectations than Hart.

3) Krieger's lawyers have more control over operations than the lawyers at Hart.

I don't know the answer, but if I were forced to guess, I'd say it is number 3.

You don't suppose it could be a fourth one?
4) Hook cut vs. button drawn vs. the type of stainless needed for that process

That is essentially what I was told.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". William Shakespeare, King Henry the Sixth, Part II (Act IV, Scene II).

I think the opportunity to rectify the modern dilemma came and went in ancient times.

Nevertheless, joking aside, since we are well within the realm of speculation, I'll join in and spec that I think it ain't the lawyers causing Kreiger to make the choices re contours.

I see why you guys love your speculations and second-guessing so much. It provides so much freedom to not be restrained by facts. Ain't it fun? Might as well enjoy the internet to its full potential.

KB

Just exactly what do you think I am speculating on? I am merely repteating what I was told and what I know to be true.

Not too long ago, stainless steel Tikka barrels were exploding with alarming frequency, especially when used in cold weather.

Hmmm . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
You don't suppose it could be a fourth one?
4) Hook cut vs. button drawn vs. the type of stainless needed for that process.

That is essentially what I was told.

Just exactly what do you think I am speculating on? I am merely repteating what I was told and what I know to be true.

What makes you think I was referring to you?

BTW, I happen to agree with your 4th suggestion, as being the most probable.

However, we don't know for sure - do we?

KB

quote:

You don't suppose it could be a fourth one? 4) Hook cut vs. button drawn vs. the type of stainless needed for that process

I don't doubt that is a factor, but I don't see how that explains why one company thinks a contour is sufficient for a 8mm, while Krieger thinks it is insufficient for a 222. I'd be interested in hearing Krieger's explanation, but when I spoke with them, they would only say that it was company policy. Absent word from Krieger, I'm left without an understanding. No problem though, I can continue to use Krieger where my contour requirements fit their policy and use Hart or another barrel maker when I have other needs.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
What makes you think I was referring to you?

KB

I was just speculating!

quote:

Originally posted by duckboat:
I'd be interested in hearing Krieger's explanation, but when I spoke with them, they would only say that it was company policy. Absent word from Krieger, I'm left without an understanding.

That's been the basic bottom line re the Kreiger contours all along. From the original question of this thread, it's a bit of a side track, which got started when someone inferred that they had some insight on the subject.

KB

This was emailed to me from a trusted source

Interview with John Krieger in September 2006 Precision Shooting:

Question: "I understand that you don't offer sporter weight barrels in 416R stainless steel. Why is that?"

Answer: "We will make the smaller barrels in 410 stainless, but the 416R just doesn't have the fatigue resistant strength that Chrome Moly does if the rifle is exposed to frigid conditions. I just don't feel comfortable sending out a barrel that may be used in Alaska or some other cold climate that is made from a steel that is unsuited to such temperatures."


Food for though.
And I left out that if anyone did their home work you would know that sulfur in any grade of steel causes low temp embrittlement. Remember the Titanic. Sulfur content in the steel allowed to go beyond the specified amount and caused the steel to become brittle at low temperatures

416 is sulfurized

More food for thought:

Titanic steel sulfur being an issue or not - I think it would be a safe presumption that the temp of that steel when it whacked the berg was close to 32 degree. Barrel steel can be much colder, not being limited to the temp of the water.

Within the quoted "answer" the implication is that Kreiger is normally using 416R, and they are uncomfortable as described, with something that practically every other US barrel maker is comfortable with.

We (me in particular) don't have the knowledge to clearly understand why that is. So, we are left with the literal interpretation that it's the prerogative of the barrel maker. The “answer” given raises as many questions – perhaps more – than it answers, which leads to speculation. It could be said that Kreiger is more conscientious than other barrel makers, but I doubt it. It could be said that they are using inferior steel, but I doubt that too. Lots of things could be speculated. Apparently it doesn’t matter to those loyal customers. It doesn’t really matter to me either, since my choice was made long ago, to buy barrels from other makers, who don’t give answers to my questions which raise other unanswered questions.

Another thing, it is my understanding that the reasons for the use of 416R is because most of the US barrel makers consider a proper balance of machinability, durability and strength. Other choices apparently were made by Lother Walthar in selecting their SS for barrels. It's their choice, considering many factors, most of which are unknown to the public.

KB

Kreiger uses 416R and used to make their lightweight barrels in 410. It was much harder to barrel and it isn't offered anymore. Must have been some misunderstanding on the 300 series stainless. I'm at The Super Shoot and if I see Helmut from Kreiger today, I will confirm this.
Butch

416R VS 410


http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/D...010/ds416Rv12010.pdf

http://www.wisconsinmetaltech.com/guide/type-410.html