I'll try to keep this as short as possible, but it may still be a little long to adequately describe my frustration.

I have a Winchester Heavy Varmint rifle in 22-250 wearing a Leupold Vari-X III 6.5-20x40. I have tried numerous loads through this rifle and have settled on IMR 4895 and the 50gr Sierra Spitzer. It really won't shoot any other bullet, which I think is quite odd in itself. Anyway, my consistency with it is horrible. One day it will shoot great (1/2" or better), while other days it opens to 1.5". Also, the point of impact isn't always the same. It may be up to 2" from where I was hitting the week before. If I clean the barrel, it takes me 15-20 rounds before it will start settling in on where it wants to group. Then it will gradually fall off again. When I move the target out to 200yds, I have no idea where it will hit. My last visit to the range showed a 4" drop from 100 to 200 yds and a terrible group. This doesn't match at all what the ballistics should be.

So my question is "where do I go from here?" A gunsmith that I ran into at the range recommended fire lapping. He said the rough bore could need those initial 15-20 rounds to fill in the holes. Once they are filled, it will shoot well until the fouling build up starts to adversely affect accuracy. My bore doesn't seem to foul that badly, so I doubt it is very rough, but I'll try it if it will help. I have noticed some inconsistencies in the blast pattern on my crown though. One side shows more than the other. Could this be causing the problem? Where else should I look for the problem?

Your last comment may have nailed it. Try and have the crown redone. If that don't do it, I would try some copper remover/solvent on the bore. It could be it is badly fouled with copper and you may not be getting it all out when you clean it. Try some Sweet's or Shooter's choice copper cleaner. You might want to check your scope mounting system also.

I agree with Jim. You didn't mention what solvent you were using for cleaning the bore. If you're using a good copper solvent and allowing enough time for it to work properly, I'd question the muzzle crown. It sounds like your crown may not be square to the bore.

As for fire lapping, I'd use it only as a last resort, and that's only for barrels other than top quality custom aftermarket barrels. I've used Tubb's Final Finish and it worked as advertised on my dad's rifle. His barrel copper fouled horribly with very few shots. Fire lapping WILL move the throat forward slightly. That was fine for my dad's rifle, since it was short throated to begin with. Just beware that in addition to "polishing" the throat and maybe a little more of the rest of the bore, you are also causing wear any time you run abrasives down the bore.

[ 11-29-2003, 04:16: Message edited by: SST ]

Jethro, If the rifle will shoot sometimes and sometimes not, could the rifle be shifting in the stock. I have had the same type of problems with rifles and most were related to bedding. Might try bedding the stock first (if you haven't) and go from there. jb

[ 11-29-2003, 08:46: Message edited by: jbok ]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Just to answer a few of your questions:

The solvent I've been using is Hopp's #9 for general cleaning. Every few trips to the range, I run about 2-3 cycles of Wipe Out through it, then back it up with Sweet's to ensure no copper remains. After these types of cleanings, I get serious variation in my first 15-20 rounds (anywhere within a 3" circle).

I'll double check the rifle shifting in the stock, but I have it quite snug. Winchester uses aluminum bedding blocks on this rifle, but I guess it could still be a problem.

As for the crown, would the symptoms I'm seeing be related to that problem (i.e. bad groups at first, then getting better, then worse again)?

I really like the rifle and would like to keep it, but I expect a factory varmint rig to shoot 1/2-3/4 MOA consistently. I hope I can solve this problem...

Jethro,

If you are really stubborn and have tons of patience, fiddle away. I've had a few such guns, and my conclusion is to try a few obvious, inexpensive ideas. If that don't work, sell the gun for a loss and move on. Life is to short to make yourself crazy with such a mysteriously inconsistent rig.

Good Luck.

If you are seeing inconsistency in the pattern on the crown, have it either touched up or recrowned by a competent gunsmith, and while he has it get it glass bedded. Should be able to get that done for around 125 to 150 dollars. If that don't fix it, SELL IT.

A friend of mine has a Winchester Stealth chambered for the 22-250 that did the same thing. He bought this rifle for 1/2 of what it was worth because the guy who owned it could not get it shoot at all. He told the guy the crown was bad but the other guy had all he wanted of it so my friend bought it, had it recrowned, and bedded it. Shot sub half MOA with several loads after that. I bet yours will to.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

One thing that no ones mentioned (I think) is change to another scope of known accuracy. And, of course, check the tightness of all the mount screws. Also, as mentioned, skim bed the action along with the recrown job.
Personally, I think firing abrasive missiles down the bore is a sour idea.

i certainly agree with the abrasives down the barrel. It is not going to make a bad barrel a good barrel that is for sure. Good point about the scope and mounts, I just took that for granted that had been checked.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

Randy Ketchum, gunsmith at Lynwood Guns, says that half the innacurate rifles he sees have loose scope mounts. That is not loose rings, that is the mounts that the scope and rings must be removed to check. This often makes targets that have a two successive rounds group very close and then the next round somewhere else.

I once saw a 22-250 that the barrel was touching the stock. The poi moved up with each shot as the barrel heated.

I have a 22-250 with a shot out throat that will do a 2" group.

Of coures the concentricity of ammo is always a problem.

I would clean it with Wipe Out to start with, then give it a good going over with Kroil and JB Compoung, shoot it and if that didn't work I would quit cleaning it. some guns shoot best with dirty barrels....

Firelapping is nothing more than adding wear to the barrel, tearing out the throat, it a farce IMO...Most barrels require 250 to 300 rounds to reach their peak in accruracy....some factory barrels are just not as accurate as other in which case you simply rebarrel with a Walther Lothar barrel or trade it off on another...The benchrester will try and toss as many as 20 or 30 barrels in order to find a suitable barrel...

More often than not when your rifle is doing what you have described, 95% of the problem resides in the bedding of the barreled action.

The aluminum bedding block does not bed your action properly. Only with the use of the many epoxy-type bedding compounds will you properly bed your action to the stock. The aluminum block cannot be machined to perfectly match your receiver, despite what some have said. It's a physical impossibility. Glass bedding will be the only way that the stock and receiver match perfectly, which is necessary for consistent grouping.

If you're seeing the uneven gas exposure on the crown, then it will most likely need to be recut.

I would bed the rifle first and take it to the range before I did anything else. That should bring more consistency to the game. If your still getting bad groups, but they are at least holding to the same point of aim, then have the barrel recrowned. If after all of this it still isn't shooting, it most likely is a bad chamber, or has excessive headspace, or a combination of the two. This is something all too common in the Winchester barrels.

As far as the fire lapping goes, Ray hit the nail on the head. Don't waste your time, or your barrel. A shiny smooth bore is great for reducing fouling but where it counts when it comes to accuracy is in the chamber and headspace, not the shiny barrel.

Almost any brand of barrel will shoot far better than your results thus far with a quality chamber.

Don't get frustrated too much with it. There's nothing majical about getting a rifle to shoot. There are some basic elements that must occur, but the smoke and mirrors are way over rated. Basically, don't sell the damn gun because you haven't figured out why it won't shoot within the first day or so. The end result will cause you to be much happier with the rifle when you know where it started from, and where it is when you get done.

You guys have all been a fantastic help. As a result of your responses, I decided against the fire lapping. What I will do in the next few weeks is get it bedded and recrowned. I've checked the scope twice before, so I highly doubt it's the problem. I didn't realize bedding an aluminum block was still so necessary. One thing still confuses me though. Why is it taking me so many rounds after I clean the barrel to get it to start grouping, although poorly? Could the bedding and crown cause this as you have mentioned?

Thanks guys!

When you clean the rifle are you putting it away with oil in bore, and then shooting it before you patch the oil out of it? Oil residue in the bore can make a rilfe shoot eratic till it finally settles down. Next time you shoot it after you have cleaned it make sure the bore is good and dry and see if that helps it settle down any sooner. I know in my rifle if there is any oil residue left in the bore it takes several shots to settle down and shoot.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight........RiverRat

Triggerguard,
HS precision would argue with you on your opinion of Aluminum bedding blocks and so would my Mountain Research rifle. Both would show you to be wrong.

Jethro, if all else fails take another look at what Clark was talking about with your scope bases.

[ 12-03-2003, 09:51: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Chic,
When I met with the folks from H-S Precision at the NRA Annual Meeting, I asked about this very thing. I was told that, if anything, a skim coat of bedding on the aluminum block is all that's needed. It helped on my H-S Precision stocked 20BR.

I agree wholeheartedly about proper bedding... that may be the problem.

The other that hasn't been mentioned is your sizing/seating dies. What brand are you using? I've had a lot of problems with RCBS dies sizing brass out-of-whack... the symtom's you describe could be traced to bad brass / non-concentric brass (from sizing). I've pretty well switched to Redding.

I would agree Brad, but my problems persisted even while using factory loads, which never touched my dies. I use RCBS BTW.

What is the possibility of my barrel being overbore? Would the symptoms be the same as a bad crown and bedding?

While technically correct triggerguard, the difference in accuracy potential between bedding blocks and glass bedding sounds irrelevant to the type and magnitude of jethro's problem. I would not waste money bedding that particular gun before trying other more likely culprits first. Then go for the last bit of help if the overall improvements warrant. And, IMHO, v-block bedding blocks for round receivers work as well as glassing when the bottom metal is steel. The factory aluminum holes in the floor plate are the culprit, especially in a gun that is disassembled regularly. The soft holes change each time the action screws are torqued and repeatbility is compromised.

The aluminum blocks in the HS-Precision stocks are not without flaw. My Mark V Wby has an HS-Precision, and the recess for the recoil lug was cut too large. When I had Shilen rebarrel it I got a letter back with it about how the rifle needed to be bedded. Luckily I made friends with one of the guys there and he did it for me.