I can't comment on the Dakota's but the M98 and pre-64 M70's have been around for many years and I have confidence I'd get a good product as long as the gunsmith does their part. Unfortunately I'm suspicious of just about anything mass produced these days. I'm sure either an authentic M98, a newer remake of the M98 or a pre-64 model 70 would all work well but if I just wanted anything that would work I'd head down and by something off the shelf. I'm trying to get a bit more knowledge about each option. Want to get as much info as I can to make a decision, that's part of the fun of it.

Joe

Thanks for your input, Bill, I find your opinions on these matters both knowledgeable and informative. I have a friend who bought himself a rifle from Hagn, one of the singleshots, a very lovely piece of work and I have told him that he should will it to me.

Last spring, I nearly bought a Dakota .330, re-stocked by Hagn and blued by you (or so the owner told me). I was very impressed by your work and felt it quite equal to Hagn's stockwork. I have seen other work that you have done and you are most definitely a gunsmith, never doubt it.

Allen---I don't know you from Adam's auntie, but, I find your comments to be both insightful and reality based and I have enough personal experience to tell, although I do not consider myself to be a firearms "expert". I would just ignore this sort of B.S. and continue to post your very enjoyable opinions for those of us, in the majority I think, who want to read them.I can honestly state that your comments about the Dakota are borne out by my experience, although I am satisfied with mine, I would never buy another at a new price.

i am thinking about buying a used dakota 76 in 06, 270 or 257 roberts.. what is your experience with these guns??it would be my main wood stocked gun

The ones I have seen were showpieces but very heavy rifles. The dealer in CT was asking about $3000 for each of them. Both had xxx wood and were scoped.



The safe queens that I have are not as nice as those rifles. If I brought a Dakota up to the camp my buddy would say "your not going to take that hunting tomorrow are you?"



If I could get one cheap I would buy it just for the fun of it. Don't know what I would do with it like I said.



I have proven for the last half century that if you check out your own gun, presuming you have some ability, it will fire, the bullet will hit the game and it will fall down. I paid $67 for my 99 back in 1966. It has never failed.



When your young you try to impress others. I have got to the point that I don't give a hoot what others have.



Dakota's are really nice however.

I have one in 416 Rigby that I picked up used for about 40% of retail. It is nicely put together, feeds well, shoots very well and looks nice doing it. I would never buy a new Dakota as I think you can have something built as you want it for the same money. If you look around there are deals out there on used ones though.

Tom - Value is a relative term. I have seen a lot of work from �nationally recognized� gunsmiths that is grossly overpriced. However, the �market� will pay whatever is expected just to have one.

Dakotas are considered semi-custom rifles. They make everything from basic to Exhibition grade with most any configuration you may wish. Their quality and workmanship are good, their actions are exceptional, and all are guaranteed to shoot sub MOA.

I have had very good results from mine and have never questioned the price that I paid. All of them have gone up in value based upon market prices - not that I purchase guns based upon that criterion.

I have more accurate guns which cost far less, and I have much more expensive guns that I would readily sell before I sold my Dakotas. Personally, I don�t think you can go wrong as long as you can afford them.

I went through a Dakota buying period. I've got 4 of them I think. They're nice rifles, but overpriced IMO, even used, unless you find a really good deal.

Quite honestly, I'd rather take the same money and hire a good riflesmith to build a custom job on a Model 70 action.

AD

In the short time that I have been on this board, I have learned to respect the opinion of many of the people here with respect to fine rifles, "Allan Day" is perhaps foremost among these. I am, however, curious as to exactly why anyone would prefer any Mod. 70, custom or otherwise, over a Dakota Mod. 76???

I have owned 26 Pre-64 Mod 70s, I currently have 10 plus two minty H&H actions and my all-time favourite rifle is an "Alaskan" in .338 Win. I also have owned a Mod. 76 in .338 Win for nearly ten years, it has lovely wood, is balanced like a fine upland gun and shoots Nosler Pt. Gold 250s into 3/4 M.O.A. It is a better rifle in terms of design and workmanship than any of the hundreds of 70s I have handled; I have a Brno 22-H "roundbolt" and a Mannlicher-Schoenauer that equal it in workmanship, but, nothing else does.

I once owned a 70 by Al Biesen and have handled rifles from some top people, so I have some knowledge of what custom rifles can be, but, other than personal touchs, I do not see a 70 as being as good as a Dakota.

The price question is something else, I think that Dakota prices are getting a bit much, but, I have seen some good deals on used ones. As to weight, they are too heavy for standard rounds, but, 8.5 lbs is about right for a .338 Win. IMO.

tom,
If you find one that you like, buy it, they are good rifles. There are a lot more happy Dakota users than unhappy ones. The unhappy ones are a small minority. You could do a custom gun but you will not get it built for the cost of a used rifle if you buy it right.

Jordan....

Since the opening post inquiring about the experience of members with Dakota rifles, no less than 8 people have expressed positive opinions, and experience, with a Dakota. Many of them expressing the opinion that Price/value is more realistic if purchasing a used Dakota at a favorable price.

Allen's opinions were:

"I'd rather take the same money and hire a good riflesmith to build a custom job on a Model 70 action."

"I don't care for the shape of the Dakota pistol grip at all...."

"I dislike the bolt-stop/bolt-release/gas-block system...."

"I don't like the ball-bearing detent that is employed to hold the bolt sleeve/striker assembly in place."

"I like the Model 70 action better for these reasons (and more)...."

"I like the stockwork from a number of custom riflemakers better...."

"I fail to see through extensive use that the Model 70 action is lacking in any practical way whatsoever."

Your very first post in reply was a copy-paste article about Dakota Arms, and the following salvo to Mr. Day.....

"Now, with all due respect to Allen Day, he is simply talking nonsense."

Your objective is pretty transparent. And it has little to do with Dakota rifles.

GV

I've had a some Dakotas (and still have a few) but I wouldn't pay the asking price for a new one. Here's a 2nd hand gun that looks reasonable.

Dakota 280

At the end of the day, is it three times as good as a clean pre-64 Model 70? Probably not.

Is the Dakota half as nice as a well constructed full custom Mauser or Model 70? Not to me, but may be to others.

Don't try to employ economic science in making your decision. The world of fine firearms is much a matter of taste and preference. Find what you like and if it seems reasonable and you can afford it, do what makes you happy.

I've owned two Dakota rifles before that didn't shoot well at all, and these left a bad taste in my mouth for several reasons that I won't elaborate on here.

But beyond that, I don't care for the shape of the Dakota pistol grip at all, I dislike the bolt-stop/bolt-release/gas-block system, and I don't like the ball-bearing detent that is employed to hold the bolt sleeve/striker assembly in place.

I like the Model 70 action better for these reasons (and more), and I like the stockwork from a number of custom riflemakers better, including the option of a McMillan stock in lieu of wood. Beyond that, I like the custom bottommetal, scopemounting systems, magazine box assemblies, barrels, and action screws better that are employed by a number of custom riflemakers for the Model 70.

I like to support small, private custom riflemakers who work with individual clients, for whom they want to build serious hunting rifles that WORK. I prefer custom rifles to semi-custom rifles, and that "Winchester" logo on the receiver adds value to such a rifle.

Besides that, I've owned many Model 70 rifles over the years through which I've fired thousands and thousands of rounds and with which I have done much hunting in many places. I fail to see through extensive use that the Model 70 action is lacking in any practical way whatsoever. Model 70 and Model 70-based custom rifles have served me better than well, and I don't care to use anything else, except for a good Mauser '98 for specific projects. Some of the new Mauser actions (true to original design) are truly wonderful, and I'd love to have a .416 Rigby built on one of these.......

AD

good thread and an interesting read for my 2cents.

Pat,

The barrels are from Dan Lilja.

I would also like to add that we have used Lilja barrels in other rifles, in 375, 416 and 458, and without exception, all of them shot extremely well.

Very highly recommended.

Idared

If I recall correctly, the other person who helped to develop the Dakota Rifle was a person by the name of Pete Grizel. He had developed a small ring action that was much like the G33-40 mauser action, and he was selling them. He then merged with Don Allen and was there while tooling was pruchased and manufacturing started on the Dakota Rifle. Then the Allens bought Mr. Grizel out, and I now believe he lives and works in South Dakota somewhere as a custom gunmaker, although I do not believe he manufactures his small ring Grizel action anymore. I have never spoken with Mr. Grizel, although I did write to him once or twice before he was with Dakota to inquire as to the purchase of one of his actions. If I recall correctly at the time he wanted $800 for one of his actions, which I thought was a fair price, but I didn't have the money at the time, and that was that. Every once in awhile one comes up for sale.

Thanks, Saeed. I know Dan, he is very clever fellow.
I will give his big bore barrels a try !

Pat

Earlier in this thread there was reference to the company that bought Peter Noreen's Action Business and refered to "Hein" or something. That would be us, Waffenfabrik Hein you can find us at www.rifleactions.com.


Karl
karl@rifleactions.com

superfluous period in that url....

I enjoyed perusing the site.

GV

http://www.rifleactions.com/

Karl

I have a feeling you are going to have a tough time of it. We speak English in this country, and nobody is going to know what in the hell it is you are selling.

Kevin