I am posting this on behalf of a mate. I am entrenched in Weatherby land

Firstly, for various reasons he is not interested in starting out with an action and going from there.

The top Model 70 listed on the Winchester website is the African for $4600US. From what we can guage from Dakota's site their rifle is about $5000 to $5500 for decent wood.

Longbob who posts here had a 458 Lott from the Winchester custom shop an it was far from smooth sailing. I think another poster Jim in Idaho may have had a similar situation. Although as I remember their rifles were the lower priced guns.

From people who know how do you think Dakota would be to deal with 12000 miles away in Australia. Getting a rifle in is OK but an export licence would need to be done with Dakota. The Model 70 is different as we have Winchester Australia but no agent for Dakota. Weaterby is also a snack as out biggests importer of guns/ammo is the Wby agent and Wby is their main line.

Again, he has no interest in having a rifle made up from an action. Are there any other "factory" type rifles worth considering. He has no interest in things like Sauer or Blazer. Weatherby is out because one reason is the 54 degee bolt lift is awkward when the other rifles are all 90 degees and in addition Wby with good wood is out of the price range and 375 H&H and Weatherby custom shop guns do not exactly go hand in hand

All his other rifles a plastic/stainless/Jewell triggers etc and he probably has an HS Precision rifle coming as well. So hebasically wants a real nice 375 H&H that spends most of its time in the gun safe or perhaps accompanying a malt scotch.

Any thoughts, comments much appreciated.

Thanks

Mike

Mike, The Dakota's are usually very nice rifles, but occasionally they can have a few problems like any other rifle. If they are about the same money I would much rather have the Dakota (I have 2 Dakota's and several Winchesters). I wouldn't get excited about paying a lot extra for wood upgrades on the Dakota. IMHO they way overprice their wood upgrades. I wouldn't at all be surprised if you could buy a Dakota with a standard grade wood and have it restocked there in Australia in better wood than you could get by buying one of their expensive wood upgrades.

Here's a good example. My Dakota Model 10 at the right has "upgraded" wood. It was an additional price to the normal XX grade of English Walnut. The "upgrade" alone cost more than the entire rifle on the left!





Not that I think that my Model 10 has bad wood by any stretch, but I don't think it's worth another $1500 to the price of the gun (Don't worry I bought it cheaper ).

Winchesters are usually good rifles and I think the custom shop model ones should be even better than normal, but I still think the Dakota's are a cut above though they charge way too much for their wood......DJ

Is the left hand rifle a Dakota?

He is not interested in starting with a barreled action and restocking in Australia.

He is well aware that wood upgrades with Dakota, Wby and Winchester are over the top.

I wonder if Dakota would allow the customer to supply the blank.

His main query with Dakota is the reliability of the company when he is 12000 miles away and no agent in Australia. There are some Dakota actions in Australia but I would not be at all suprised if there no Dakota rifles here.

Do you believe there is any truth in Dakota actions being on the soft side.

Mike

I bought a Model 70 Classic Safari Express in 375 caliber. Totally awful in many ways. Herringbone pattern on stock where power screwdriver slipped out of screw slot sort of stood out as finish flaw. Every screw damaged. Vise marks on barrel band. Wood putty where a knot had fallen out of the wood. (Okay, a slightly irregular near circle that matched the grain in the area. Knot hole? Can't say for sure. Wood putty? No doubt about that.). Mis-fed and took brass shavings off the cases the size of big fingernail clippings. Sent it back.

Got a different rifle back. Different serial number. Awful again. Wood was nothing to write home about, but it didn't have any glaring flaws either. Sent it back. The gun went to the Winchester Custom Shop gunsmiths.

Rifle looked pretty good. The "cottage cheese" or "engine block" appearance of the metal above the stock line was all polished out. The bluing was even toned and all one color. The rifle still mis-fed about every tenth or twelfth round. Sent it to Mark Penrod to have the feeding problem fixed.

Now it feeds flawlessly. Mark also took out the single #6 screw and re-attached the rear sight with two #8 screws so I can open bottles with it.

At this point, I've got near $1800 in the rifle (originally purchased for about $950). It works fine, but it was almost two years since I bought it before I finally had a working rifle.

My point is that you could buy a rifle from the Winchester Custom Shop for $1800 and still need lots of time and work to get it working. If I wasn't left-handed, I would have had more options, and building up from an action would have been at least as painless as buying an off-the-rack Winchester rifle. I guess the Custom Shop will give you a nicer piece of wood, and you might not get the terrible finish flaws I did, but your mate is likely to need some work to improve the rifle's functioning.

That said, would I spend twice as much on a Dakota if I had it to do over again? If my boss would double my salary, you bet I would.

H. C.

Mike, there was a time when I wouldn't say this, but I would certainly go with a Dakota or with a Weatherby on today's market. Winchester's Custom Shop seems to be a rather poor risk, and staffed by incompetents.

Since you gentlemen down under have some very fine home grown walnut available, I'd select a really fine, old, dry blank with color and figure to suit your friend's taste, then send it off to Dakota for a use on the rifle he's ordering. By doing so, you can eliminate THAT variable yourself, right out of the chute..........

AD

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike375:
Is the left hand rifle a Dakota?

Do you believe there is any truth in Dakota actions being on the soft side.

---

Mike, the rifle on the left is a Kimber 84m Super America in 308 Winchester.
I don't thing there is any problem with the Dakota Actions. They are usually very nicely made.

I think that Allen may have a very good idea. You could tell Dakota that you greatly prefer Aussie wood and have them build a rifle on a nice stick you could find there and send them.Maybe you could end up with a Good gun with nice wood without having to overpay for the wood

I purchased a Winchester Model 70 Custom African Express in .470 Capstick. It was ordered in December 2000 and I recieved it September 25, 2001. I took the time to be properly fitted for the gun before ordering it and it fits perfectly. The workmanship is outstanding and I was able to specify exactly how I wanted it built. The Obendorf Floorplate holds 3 rounds down plus one in the chamber, it has 2 crossbolts,a 2.5 pound trigger pull, a match grade chrome-moly barrel and barrel mounted front sling swivel -- just to mention a few options.
I see posts of folks who are unhappy with the
Wichester feeding, fit and function but find it difficult to believe that guns from the custom shop have those problems. In my case, working with the Custom shop at Winchester was a pleasure and they delivered as promised.

buckeyeshooter,

Is this your rilfe

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=912&cat=013C

Mike375,
I have imported from Dakota a few times and they are very helpful and never had a problem when importing into Australia. Please contact if you need assistance in bringing one in. Thanks

Steve

Steve,

Did you get the Dakota rifle (s) or just actions.

If rifles,what did you think of them and what calibre (s)

Mike

I have owned three Dakotas and numerous Winchester rifles both standard and custom grades. I will not spend the money for the Dakota EVER as their warranty is not good. I had feeding issues with a '76 in 7-08 as well as accurracy issues. They took the rifle back to fix and it shot worse. They had it three more times and we still got no satisfaction. Sold the rifle as-is at a gun show. I would not risk it 20 miles away much less 12,000 miles away.
Most production rifles have issues. You just can not expect a perfect specimen off of a production line for the kind of money the general public is willing to spend. For most consumers, a gun that functions 18 out of 20 times on average, will be happy. Hell they probably will think the error was made by them anyway. It is only a true gun crank that expects supurb accurace and function out of their rifle. I think you are better off buying one of the nucleus rifles from Winchester and spending another $500.00 slicking the action. It will probably will need to be worked on anyway unless you buy a full custom job and Then you will get form, accuracy, and function as well as sticker shock. The time wait could be more for the custom than an off the shelf rifle sent off to be accurized.

quote:

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Originally posted by HenryC470:
My point is that you could buy a rifle from the Winchester Custom Shop for $1800 and still need lots of time and work to get it working.
H. C.

---

HC,

The Model 70 African is $4600 and that is the rifle being compared to Dakota. I think they come in left hand as well.

Mike

IB404, that's my real worry about "factory custom" rifles: Some turn out great and others are abysmal. It seems like for every great Dakota 76 that someone owns, another person owns a dog, and for every good Model 70 Custom Shop product that someone raves about, another guys owns a real lemon.

I always get back to this point, but the best way to head-off disappointment is to send an action to a small, independent custom riflebuilder instead of the semi-production gunsmithing studios that hide under the guise of being "Custom Shops". You don't know what sort of poorly-trained, uninspired stooge you're going to draw under the later system.

At least with a Roger Biesen, you know the guy who runs the show knows his onions and his guns, whereas the woman who answers the phone (or answers your voice message sometime next week) at Winchester's "CS" might not -- she just takes orders and hopes to heck for the best or doesn't give a damn at all................

I know this: The custom riflemakers I know who get my business DO care about what they're building, and you can count on the results......

AD

Mike375,
That is the one--- the .470 Capstick is not in the catalog any longer in the Custom African Express. For general knowledge-- the order number for the .470 capstick was 535-912145 for the custom African Express. I would bet they would still build one for you. Just in case you decide you want a bit more than the .375!!

buckeyeshooter,

How would you rate the action on that rifle.

It always seemed to me that "in theory" Winchester custom had the raw non finished action to work on as opposed to polishing etc an action that had already been finished to size.

I did read somewhere that David Miller received the actions from Winchester in a non finished form.

Is you rifle as they picture or did you get different wood etc. If don't mind me asking what did you gu ending up costing.

Mike

Allen,

I think you are much better off in America with the custom gun than we are in Australia and especially when it comes to getting Model 70s all all cleaned up and straight. If you were talking Mauser and stuff like 404, 500 Jeffery etc then Australia is tops. i would not trust anyone in Australia to do what Echols does by takeing a M70 in 270 and then making a 375.

I found Weatherby perfect to deal with in their custom shop. Kevin Nunes even phoned me to tell me the rifless had been shipped and then asked again later if the agent had got them to the gun shop etc. The only negative with Weatherby is that once you move away from any of their catolgued rifles, including Crown Customs, Safari etc, things get quite pricey. Part of the price hike is that they no longer give the same deal to the dealer or import agent.

One area where I prefer M70 or Weatherby to Dakota is that there have been 1000s and 1000s of then used all over the world for many years. I don't know if that manifests as a reality but it does in my mind.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike375:

HC,

The Model 70 African is $4600...

Mike

---

It's a no-brainer. Go with the Dakota. I would not by any stretch of the imagination pay $4600 for a current-issue, non-collectible USRAC rifle. I don't collect $5000 new guns, for that matter.

H. C.

Mike375,
The fit and finish is the best I have ever owned and maybe the best I have ever seen. The action was blueprinted and handlapped by the custom shop. The bolt is engine turned. The action was also worked in the custom shop to make everything feed perfectly-- there is a notation of feed rail relief and an extra long magazine fitted on my paperwork. It is one smooth action.
The wood is upgraded but not exhibition grade, nice figure and moderate burl in the wood. I wanted someting that I could hunt with -- not a safe queen. It has a shadowline Cheekpiece and the rear swivel is inletted like you see on some of the old custom guns. I guess the best part is that it fits me perfectly.
Total cost was $4800.00 plus state sales tax (5.5% then). It was delivered in a Winchester Hard Case fit to the rifle, I thought that was a very nice touch.

Buckeye,

Did you have any choice in wood or other options or do you basically just order the rifle in whatever calibre.

This sounds quite interesting and could be just what I am looking for. I am building a collection of Wbys from their custom shop and the first two, a pair of 378s have arrived. But I was wanting at least one classy 375 H&H and preferably Model 70. The idea of a 375 H&H on a Wby would cause me to break out in hives.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by RLI:
Mike375,
I have imported from Dakota a few times and they are very helpful and never had a problem when importing into Australia. Please contact if you need assistance in bringing one in. Thanks

Steve

---

The Dakota imports were a .375H&H and a .416Rigby both complete rifles and they were very well made I could not fault them, I never fired them but the fellows who bought them have no complaints. I have a Winchester .375H&H "Classic Safari Express" Left Hand and I have never had a problem with this rifle ,The Custom shop rifles should be I think same standard as Dakota. I would be trying to get a original Pre 64 Winchester and get a 'Smith here in Australia to custom it for you.

Steve

Mike375,
Your dealer can actually get a design form for you and you can specify wood, checkering design, gold inlay or metal design along with a very long list of options in things like type of bluing or use of stainless steel, barrel type round, octogon, or 1/2 each.
It is a compete custom--- you can get anything you want.
Functional features can be specified also, trigger pull, magazine capacity, type of floorplate -- again about anyting you want.
I worked through the design form and tried to keep it functional and of classic design.

I will give them a call next week and get a feel of the place.

It sounds similar to Weatherby although with them you do it with a mixture of phone and email although they do offer an on line form.

With Winchester does it all have a personal touch or is just filling in the form and sending it off.

If the budget will stretch i would not mind doing one in February along with my next Weatherby. The M70 has much more attractive prices than the Weatherby. Actually, a pair of those Winchesters in 300 H&H and 375 H&H would be nice and would also pair up nicely with the whorehouse Wby customs in 30/378 and 378.

Mike

I have read the posts and they seem to all have valid points. The question that I have is why the cost of a Dakota is so dramatically higher here in the states than a model 70 and by shipping both rifles 12,000 miles the Winchester increases so much in value (or cost)compared to the Dakota. I would think that with all the geniuses that post on these forums somebody could get a Winchester to you for significantly less than the Dakota. What am I missing here?

shooter Boy

If Wby, Winchester and Dakota were all the same price in the US of A the Dakota would end up being the dearest in Austalia because of the deals that Winchester Australia and the Australian Wby agent get. The Australian agent for Weatherby is our biggest guns/ammo importer and Weatherby is their main line, especially the Weatherby vanguard which is the biggest selling rilfe in Australia.

But there are variations. For example, if you do Weatherby and don't get one of their catalogued rifles, standard Deluxe or Crown Custom, then Weatherby no longer offer the same deal to the dealer/agent.

But also a Dakota is not dramatically higher than a Winchester custom shop rifle. I have had no dealings with the Winchester custom shop but if they are the same as Weatherby then when optioned up or if some different things are done then they will probably be more expensive than Dakota. A standard shit box Weatherby crown custom is $7500 US and looks great from 20 feet away I would imagine Dakota gives the most rifle for the money.

On the other hand you might get away bringing a Dakota in yourself ad if you were lucky you might escape th 30% duty and taxes or you might have the rilfe listed at a much lower price.

What one could do with Dakota is to buy an action and then pay duty/tax on the action and then send the action back to Dakota to make the rifle as a "repair" but all risky stuff.

But just to put things into perspective a standard Holland and Holland 375 is $33000
US and scope mounts are $5000US and deluxe wood and a recoil pad are options Christ only knows what it would be with Purdey or if yo has them make the rifle on a Hartman and Weiss action.

Mike



b

I cannot speak about the Dakota, having only picked one up carefully and put it down just as carefully. I do have a Stainless Winchester Custom Shop Model 70 in .358 STA that has the most handsome wood I have every seen on any custom rifle. I got it for a bargain, it shoots like a dream, and has taken much game from Colorado to Alaska to Africa and I plan to shoot it until I can't handle it anymore, then it goes to a grandson born on the day I bought it. Good shooting.

Mike 375

I have recently had a Model 70 in 416 rem mag customised by Rob Blomfield of Sunshine Coast Gunsmithing (Pomona). He is does both the metal work and the stock himself. Mine turned out really well and if I had the skill to post some pics I would.

I am in the process of doing a 375 Mod 70 but that will be a stainless synthetic with a Macmillan stock which has just arrived.

If you want to know more let me know.

MLG,

I am keener to have the Winchester custom and my mate is Dakota minded.

I suppose I like the idea of a Winchester custom in 375 to to provide some offset to my whorehose Wby side of the safe.

By the way I have no illusions that a Winchester custom shop rifle is any better, probably not as good, as starting from an action. More just the package, if you know what I mean and being a factory custom it sort of sits better with the Wby whorehouse specials.

When you think we could could shoot everything with a Ruger or Howa 308 it just shows how mad we all must be.

Mike

To import a rifle from USA is made up this way

$200 Exporters Fee
$100 Approx Air Mail
10% GST on Declared Value of Rifle
Brokers Fee in Australia about $100 or do it yourself not hard. Also with Free Trade now between Australia/USA it may be cheaper.
Steve

Steve

You would also have 20% import duty.

The other aspect is that Winchester Autralia will obtain the rifle much cheaper.

I am not sure of the prices but I think some gunshops are selling M70 WSMS for about 1100 or 1200. Be interesting to compare buying one in the US and compare costs.

One other point. A couple of years ago I saw a walnut/blue M70 375 that would feed properly and Winchester just took it back and credited the gun shop.

Of course if you are talking Dakota then things are totally different.

But I think what you are saying is that if my mate is Dakota minded he should not be put off because there is no agent here for them. Is that correct?

Mike

Mike, Just curious but is it possible to buy a rifle from an individual here in the states and import it to Austrialia? Would it save you any money?.............DJ

DJ,

Bringing the rifle in is not a problem except for getting the American export licence if the value is over $100US. There seems to be a fair bit of flexibility there. Huntingtons for example break orders for cases into smaller lots.

If customs open the package then there would be a 20% import duty (unless the free trade agreement changes things) and a 10 % Goods and Services tax. The rifle would probably go to the Federal police for drop tests on triggers.

The economy of the deal depends on the deal the Australian agent gets. For example, we can buy a Wby Vanguard in the shop for about $650 AUS, say $500US.

What do tbey cost at Wal Mart....$350US?? Then that becomes about $450AUS then 20% duty and 10% GST puts it at $600 plus freight and insurance and perhaps 100 to 250 for an export licence.

But a Dakota would be a different deal because we don't have an agent. HS Precision would also be different because the agent is only small compared to the Wby agent. In other words the agent for HS Precision would not get nearly the deal on HS Precision that Nioa trading get with Weatherby.

Just as a side note, with Weatherby if you buy any rifle that is not a catologued item then they no longer give the deal to the agent. In other words a 300 Wby Crown Custom might retail for 4 times a 300 Deluxe and in Australia that 4 to 1 price ratio will hold. But as you soon as you move off the catologue the game changes. I have just been throught it. I think a similar thing happens in America.

But as you say..it is all for fun. Once you move past a Ruger/Howa etc in 30/06 we are into toy land

Mike

If I wanted a custom .375 H&H, having had experience with Dakota, I'd go to the Winchester custom shop in a heartbeat.

vapodog

Could elaborate on why as I am showing this thread to my mate. I am trying to talk him into Winchester but currently quality control of some standard M70s is a big issue for him. He just got 223 WSSM Coyote and the barrel is so misaligned on the receiver (vertical) we had to be the scope at an angle in the rings. What hurts a bit is the rirlfe as only bought for the action and stock and the factry barrel came straight off.

Mike

Mike,

You pretty much know my story, but I would never buy another Winchester Custom Shop rifle. The problems I had ranged from minor (bolt gouged the cheek piece) to serious (wouldn't feed properly) to downright dangerous (second recoil lug sheared away and destroyed the stock).

I cannot speak for or against a Dakota because I have never owned one. If I were going to that much expense again, I would get an D'Arcy Echols offering for just a little bit more (if possible).

Longbob,

As I remember you had the 458 Lott entry level rifle and I remember the problems.

I know this is a hard question and can only be based on feelings....but do you think if the rifle had of been the $4800 African there would have been any differences in the outcome. Also, what if it had been a very standard long term Winchester chambering such as the 375 H&H.

By the way, Echols is not a viable situation for Australia as I had some communication with him some time ago. In short, he is booked out and is not into export licences etc.

Mike

Mike,

Mine is the Safari Grade. Even the Custom Shop people were embarrassed about the cheek piece being so high that the bolt would gouge into it when drawn fully back. This shouldn't have made any difference wheither it was the Safari or the African.

The basic difference between the two is the African has a higher grade of wood and different magazine to allow an additional round. Other than that, I'm not sure of any advantages over the Safari.

The major problems would most likely have been eliminated by the 375 H&H chambering vs. the 458 Lott, but there are no guarantees. According to D'Arcy (and I think he would know more than just about anyone), it is pretty difficult to get the 458 Lott to feed reliably with all ammo. He puts in quite a bit of work to accomplish this.

The Winchester Custom Shop did spend extra time on mine to get it to feed properly because I held their feet to the fire. Does it feed as well as one of D'Arcy's? I don't know, but I doubt it. It does feed everything I put in it. This was tested on my first buffalo hunt where I had to feed 9 rounds through it while running after it over about 400 yards. I didn't shoot it from 400 yards, that's how far I ran after the buffalo while firing. I knew one of us was going to die, but I wasn't sure which one for a while.

It's a moot point about the second recoil lug on the 458 Lott vs. the 375 H&H. I don't believe the 375 requires one on the barrel.

Too bad about not being able to get the Echols. Knowing what little I know about the Dakota's, I still might choose one over the Winchester if I was only able to pick between the two.

Longbob,

Any of those calibres like 458 and 458 Lott are difficult feeders from a staggered magazine because the bullet is almost the diameter of the chamber an they are usually loaded with blunt bullets.

In my opinion total reliability would only come from an in line vertical stack magazine.

Mike

But the vertical stack takes you back to the Weatherby. I've got a couple of them and I do like them, but my buffalo hunt illustrates why I'm glad I didn't have one with me at the time.

Under that kind of scenario, I could have easily jammed up the rifle with a double feed or something. CRF was described to me as similar to an automatic transmission where as a push feed was more akin to a stick shift. You don't want to miss a gear or strip out the transmission in the middle of an intense competition. I don't care how slick that manual transmission shifts. It is just one more thing to think about when you have enough on your mind as it is.

You can have your cake and eat it. What about a 500 Jeffery on a M98 with vertical stack. That is how they do them in Australia.

Mike

Mike,
I can import a Dakota if you wish as I import from USA on regular basis (I have a Victorian Gundealers licence)you say there is a 20-30% import duty or tax not so you only pay 10%GST on declared value of rifle plus freight and some very small charges. Once the rifle leaves the Dakota factory it will be here in 48 hours and should clear Customs 2 or 3 days. Winchester Australia may not import a custom rifle as I tried to order a Winchester 70 thru them and they said to order direct from custom shop as to much trouble but that was 2 years ago and they may now do it.

Steve