I purchased a rem 700 sps varmint in .204 last year and put a nikon 6.5-20x44 on it. The problem is i couldnt get it zero at 100 yrds, there isnt enough adjustment in the scope so i have to shim it! So i guess the question is is there any other way to solve this problem besides shimming, and if not should i shim it under the base or on the ring its self? Looking forward to you help.

Burris signature rings are a god send.....they come with eccentric sleeves just for that problem.

They work!

I have shimmed bases on some guns, and the rings on other guns, both methods work.

Just make sure your shim material is non compressible, so it does not change over time.

Welome to the forums Adam!

I'll parrot vapodogs suggestion. Signature rings make this a non issue, don't mar the scope, and don't cost any more than other quality rings.

But NE 450 s correct, you can shim either bases or rings. If you choose that route, personally I would shim the base. pop cans work OK but most anything will work. Try to use a material thick enough to only require 1 layer. When you find the correct stuff take it off and paint the shim black and re-install.

However, Burris Signature rings are the way to go ubless you don't want to wait for delivery IMHO.

Signature's

I have shimmed with brass, Chrome Moly steel, stainless steel, note book paper, and Post-its.

I have shimmed under the scope base.
I have shimmed between the ring and mount on one of the Weaver "V"s.

Some of us math nerds can just make up the formulas in our minds, that if the scope mounts are 4" apart, to move the point of impact 1 foot at 100 yards then the shim must be (4")((1') (12"/1'))/((100 y)(3'/y)(12"/1') =.0133"

Post-Its are .003 ~ .004" thick.
How many layers do you need?
You do the math.

You can buy shim stock:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=810&PARTPG=INLMK3&PMITEM=406-0200

1903 Turkish Mausers receivers made in Orberndorf between 1903 and 1905 have a problem with Weaver #45 mounts in the rear and #46 mounts on the forward ring. Rather than put .023" of shim under the front ring, I put the rear mount between two modified V blocks in the mill vise and mill off .023".

Thanks for the help every one i think i am going to go with the signature rings, do i have to purcahse the pos align offset insert kit, or do i just need the rings? Once again thanks for the help.

You will need both. The rings come with inserts with no offset. You then replace one or both to get you where you want to be.

Their web sight explains it I believe.
http://www.burrisoptics.com/sigrings.html

Thanks for helping a new guy out everyone! I am looking forward to sharing stories and learning alot from everyone on here!
Thanks again,
Adam

Yeah,way to go. I've just installed the maximum
signature shims, front down rear up and a bit of a sideways twist as well.
Worked it all out on what goes where and I was exactly wrong. However it was easy to shift everything opposite, and a bore sighter was terrific to verify everything.

I dodge shims like the plague......

Burris has a solution for a problem that normally can be solved with epoxy, accraglass, or bedding of your choice. That, coupled with getting the bases lined up properly, will eliminiate 99% of most problems folks cure with a shim, while adding problems they're not aware of.

OK then. My Ruger 77-22 seemed to shoot about 12" (up or down?) and about 4" to one side.
This was corrected initally with the scope adjustment way over,& up (or down?)
I was able to shim both the mounts and scope to get the scope adjustments about centered.

The Signature inserts did the same thing in a better way. The slightly higher mounts aided in scope/bolt handle clearence. A win/win for me.

Where was I to epoxy, glass, or bed ??
The bases are fixed, and we're not all mechinists/handymen.

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:
Burris has a solution for a problem that normally can be solved with epoxy, accraglass, or bedding of your choice.

I did say "normally" and that burris had the solution if you didn't want to, or couldn't use my proposal....

I am curious how you shimmed your "bases"......I can see shimming a scope, a ring, but not a base on a Ruger.
I know what you meant obviously, but I played connect the dots in the same manner you could have by more carefuly reading my post.

Personally, if I owned one that was that far off, I'd be calling Ruger for a replacement....but if that didn't work, it would either be remachined or hit the road. Without the equipment to fix it.....the choice would be clear.

To shim the Ruger base was easy. One side has a fixed wedge that clamps into the receiver. If ya jams a shim between them it kicks one set of mounts/rings to one side. Not good hence the Signature system so I could sleep nights.

Send it back to Ruger? Hell, I bought it the first year they were made, (1984 was it.)
With average scopes I didn't notice anything wrong, but moving to Rimfire range shooting with a big variable scope, adjusting for wind ect. I ran out of adj with a gale from the east.

Plus, according to AR fans, many rifles have the barrel screwed on crooked or the mounts mechined crooked (ie. Brno/CZ) and some members here talked me into trying the Burris fix.
Quick,painless, and you can't get into much trouble.

You still haven't told me where to put this goop you mentioned.

I read your post as that you were a gunsmith and were forgetting us ordinary folks.

I didn't mention Ruger with the epoxy fix, simply because It can't be done......Remington, Winchester, Mauser, Sako, Kimber, Weatherby, Marlin, Browning, and host of others that don't have integral mounts can be affixed with epoxy or bedding.

As a rule, rings and bases are pretty damn accurate and consistent from part to part.....much more than the receiver they're sitting on. Some will correct this problem by lapping the rings, thinking it's the rings and or bases that's the problem. Almost always it's the action that has been either poorly machined, poorly finished, or both that cause ring misalignment. This misalignment in some cases can be so severe that it has your scope in a bind inside the rings.....so much so that you'll destroy an otherwise good scope under recoil, by bending the tube. Some tubes get destroyed by merely attaching them to rings that are out of alignment.
By accurately setting up and aligning the bases to one another and applying epoxy, they form an accurate base to the receiver that is aligned and it nearly eliminates the need for any lapping to occur on the rings.

I've yet to put a set of bases on anyone's receiver and not see some gap between the receiver and the base.......if that's the case, they won't be in alignment. Your soul locator is now those counterbored holes that are in the bases, lining up with the tapped holes in the receiver. On a good day, a guy can get .020" of slop from one side to the other and I've seen it much worse than that.

I took a new Marlin 17HMR out of the box and in the same box Marlin had furnished some Weaver mounts.

Putting the Weaver mounts on the rifle, I put the edge of the mounts on a granite surface plate and saw light under the edge where the mounts pointed in different directions. I put the mounts on many times, but they were always a little off, pointing this way or that.

Should I tighten them down, put on rings, and lap the rings?
No, I should epoxy the mounts to the receiver with the mount screws loose, the rings to the mounts tight, and the rings to the scope tight. Then tightening the mount to receiver screws when the epoxy hardened.

Then the mount edges lined up co linearly on the granite surface plate.

No one else seems much interested, but one more try for me.

So if you fellas screw a base to an action, and the mechined groves, screw holes or Ruger mouldings are causing the scope to be crooked, you somehow use goop to correct it when it's loose and then tighten it all up? So you'd be tightening metal to solidifyied goop??

Sounds like what you fellers would call bubbered or whatever. Personally I have never had mounts that seemed out as far as aligning the scope goes, and most reported problems seeemed to be the barrel screwed in crooked or such.

Here, it is quite common to glue the base to the reciever of a centerfire, where only 4 screws hold it on. Someone has done my .458 with what looks like araldite, probably to stop it comming loose.

Having seen the signature system, I have to agree with the makers, it looks a good system with even just the straight inserts, and allows a stress free correction for ANY OTHER error, for ANY installer with 2 left thumbs even.

Does anyone know of a fault with the Signature system???

To simplify the process........

Do you bed your rifle action to your stock???

If so, why??

The answer is the same for having your mounts bedded as well and it is by far and away no "bubba" operation.

When I get done with a set, you'd never know by looking that they were bedded, just like a quality bedding job is done on a stock.

I think shims are a poor fix...They don't work to suit me with QD rings and bases IMO..Return to zero is seldom acceptable..

I usually have the action surface ground and reblued if its off or I suppose you could have the bases hand fitted to correct them...

If the screw holes or off go to 8/40s and correct it that way if you can,

If none of the above works then ditch the rifle.

Thanks for your patience, I didn't mean for one minute that your work would be dodgy, just the thought of using goop in that situation. I still can't picture the joints, but that's just me.

I agree that shims as such are bad news.
But to me, having seen the Signature system, shim doesen't seem the right word.

For anyone that hasn't seen them, the insert sits flat around the scope, as is normal, but the inserts are convex where they fit into the mount rings which is concave to match.
Therefore they would swivel/twist somewhat to alleviate any stress on the scope. I don't know if they'd grip enough on a big kicker though. Still, that could be where I could utilize some goop.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:


So if you fellas screw a base to an action, and the mechined groves, screw holes or Ruger mouldings are causing the scope to be crooked, you somehow use goop to correct it when it's loose and then tighten it all up? So you'd be tightening metal to solidifyied goop??

Weaver mounts have 6 degrees of freedom when the screws are loose.
1) Put the goop under the mounts and leave the screws loose.
2) Fixture the mounts so they are in the correct position.
3) Wait for the goop to harden.
4) Then tighten the mount screws.

This takes some skill, but has some advantages:
1) It costs almost nothing.
2) Scopes move from rifle to rifle taking their rings and are on the paper without bore sighting.
3) Rings are never lapped.
4) A rifle scoped with a 30mm tube & large objective, and a rifle scoped with a 1" tube can swap scopes in seconds.
5) 20 moa elevation can be added at no extra cost.



There are shims and then there are shims and then there are shims:
A) If 20 moa elevation is desired, then a sliver of .025" shim under the rear base will allow the scope used for fixturing to spin on the -20 moa spot in the Leupold magnetic bore sighter. The mounts can then be glassed to the receiver. This piece of shim is surrounded with epoxy on all 4 sides. It is just an aid in fixturing for the epoxy.
B) The height error in a 1903 Turkish Mauser with Weaver #45 and #46 mounts is .021". This can be corrected best by milling a radius on the bottom of the mount, but adding a shim will make an acceptable permanent fix.
C) If a scope will not get on the paper for the guy next to you at the range, becuase his gunsmith drilled the rear holes off center, a piece of match book cover between mount and ring may help him get on the paper, but is not water proof.

Thanks tnekkcc, I now see what you mean. I was mostly thinking about where the rings attach to the mounts, my brain still on my old Ruger problem.

But, the only Weaver style mounts I've seen are two piece and if you shimmed up the rear one won't the rings bind on the scope?

So lap the rings? or . . . install signatures on the weaver bases.

A smith did my long range rifle mounts by shaving a bit off the bottom of the Weaver bases with his lathe, or something.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who suggested using the Burris sign. series rings with the offset inserts! I finaly got them in and they worked great and look great, makes me feel alot better that some slivers of pop can in there!
Thanks again,
Adam